Tape Backup
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Tape Backup
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Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:00 am    Post subject: Tape Backup Reply with quote
I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks
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Brian K
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
On 01/13/2005 4:00 PM chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:

Quote:
I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks



What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream

tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been out of
business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for
backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found the least expensive
being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

--
________
To email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.
Brian M. Kochera
"Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"
View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951
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dg
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage capacity
of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

--Dan

<chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks
Back to top
Lynn
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
Quote:
What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream tape drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been
out of business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD for backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found
the least expensive being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced ! 20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=40-113-121&depa=0

But, I would use an external hard drive with Robocopy.

Lynn
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J. Clarke
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
dg wrote:

Quote:
I am a fan of hard disk storage used for backup, BUT, I was recently in a
computer store and saw a product marketed by ZIP that had a storage
capacity
of (I think) 35-90GB. I think it was tape. Knowing ZIP products are
marketed towards the average PC user (and priced accordingly), you might
want to browse their website and see what they have to offer.

It's an Iomega product but it's not a Zip and it's not a tape, it's called a
"REV" and it's a removable-media disk. The drive is 300 bucks and the
disks cost about the same as hard disks of slightly larger capacity.

Quote:
--Dan

chrisisasavage@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105650059.340774.306560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Thanks


--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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J. Clarke
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
Lynn wrote:

Quote:
What do you consider "reasonably priced"? I used to use an Onstream tape
drive for backups. But it died and Onstream has been
out of business for two years. I am currently looking at external HDD
for backup. I shopped around for tape drives. I found the least
expensive being $1,099. and that was for a 10 GB tape drive.

Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced ! 20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=40-113-121&depa=0


Travan drives are pieces of shit and the tapes cost more than 200 gig LTOs.
Tape drives are one place where you get what you pay for.

Think about it--40 bucks a pop for 20 gig tapes (forget the "20/40" crap,
they're 20 gig) vs 46 for a 40 gig disk.

Quote:
But, I would use an external hard drive with Robocopy.

Lynn

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Mike Tomlinson
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
In article <cs71p4$ofh@library1.airnews.net>, Lynn <NOSPAM@NOSPAM.com>
writes

Quote:
Whoa, Travan tape drives are very reasonably priced !

They're also a pile of unreliable shite.

Quote:
20/40 GB
for $299 and the tapes are $40 each.

I pity you if you think $40 per tape is "reasonably priced".

--
..sigmonster on vacation
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Arno Wagner
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage chrisisasavage@hotmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I am looking for opinions on what a decent tape backup for a PC
workstation might be, somewhere around 40 gigs or so, speed is not the
biggest issue, mostly being reasonablly priced and around 40 gigs (give
or take a few). I'm wondering what people think the better brands are
for this type of applications, and if possible, a suggestion on a
model.

Forget it. Tape is today only cost-effective if you have huge volumes
of data in tape libraries, e.g. >100TB.

Other backup media are (my subjective list):

Medium...high reliability, medium lifetime, medium cost, high capacity:
- HDDs in external enclosures or removable drive bays

Low reliability, low lifetime, high cost, medium capacity:
- Non-professional tape (Dat, Travan)

Low reliability, low lifetime, low cost, low capacity:
- CD-R, DVD+/-R(W)

High reliability, high lifetime, medium cost, low capacity:
- MOD (3.5"), DVD-RAM

To long-term store lower volumes of critical (family photos,
diploma thesis, etc.) data use MOD or DVD-RAM.

For backups with small sizes use MOD, DVD-RAM or HDDs.
For backups with large sizes use HDDs.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
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Irwin
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived? I really don't
know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better. Now granted, I have
burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
data before it starts to corrupt?

IMF
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J. Clarke
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
Irwin wrote:

Quote:
Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

Whether they are or not depends on the particular chemistry--some last a
good long time when properly stored but don't count on it unless you're
sure you know what you're getting.

Quote:
I really don't
know. You say HDD are reliable and medium life. I have never dropped a
hard drive, but I have dropped a lot of backup CD-R, and I am guessing
that the CD-R tolerate physical abuse a lot better.

Some kinds yes, others no. A hard disk shock-mounted in a removable tray
will take quite a lot of abuse, a laptop drive even more. One thing you
are not going to do is scratch the data off a hard disk by dragging
something across it.

Quote:
Now granted, I have
burned many a Drive Image CD, only to find that they don't verify
correctly. I never did understand where exactly the problem was in
that, was it software, burner, or medium? I guess that would qualify as
unreliable. It was be pretty devastating to try to restore a CD-R image
only to find that it was invalid and was your only backup. Actually, I
think that has happened to me before, I seem to remember. Is a
validated CD-R still unreliable and short-lived?

I have some old HDD on a shelf in anti-static bags, and I don't
consider them particularly convenient. Also, how long does a HDD hold
data before it starts to corrupt?

Put those disks in inexpensive trays and they become a lot more convenient.
You'll find that disk is actually competitive with travan tape in cost and
is much more flexible in terms of options for backup strategies (you can
use anything from xcopy to high end enterprise backup software, you can
back up to RAID, can do all sorts of things that you can't do with tape)
and vastly superior in terms of transfer rate and scalability (when you
need 200 gig of backup, if there is a Travan that large available at all
it's not going to be cheap and won't use your existing tapes, but stick a
250 gig disk in a tray and it plugs right in where your old 40 came out,
with no changes at all needed.

As to how long a hard disk holds data, I don't know a specific answer to
that--I've never had one lose data that had not failed outright. Since
they depend on magnetic servo tracks for their operation they should hold
data uncorrupted as long as the drive operates.




Quote:
IMF

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Neil Maxwell
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
very high risk.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
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Paul Rubin
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> writes:
Quote:
CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

High quality CDR (e.g. Mitsui Archive Gold) have undergone a lot of
testing and seem to be quite stable for long periods. The jury is
still out for DVDR. Hard drives contain all kinds of seals, filters,
lubricants on mechanical parts, and flash memory parameters and
firmware dependent on floating charges, all of which can decay over a
period of years. Hard drives are quite unreliable for long term
storage.
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Al Dykes
Guest
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
In article <462gu0t9vcernodg05i2dpn5oe1hskbn1g@4ax.com>,
Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote:
Quote:
On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:

Arno,

Why are CD-R and DVD+-R unreliable and short lived?

CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

I like using HD as the primary backup, then archiving the backup files
to DVDR every now and again. This gives you several levels with
different failure mechanisms, and the DVDRs don't age enough to be a
very high risk.


--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer


The ability to read a DVD written on one brand of burner on any other
reader scares me. I'd do a readback on at least one PC of another
brand to test it.

You also need several generations of backup, and never overwrite your
best backup. (this applies to disks and re-writable media.)

Unless you've actually tested a restore to bare iron you don't
know if your disaster recovery plan will work when you need it.

These days I do image backups to a pair of big disks in another
computer on my LAN, (these disks are synced in case one dies) and I
backup my data (mostly "My Documents") with some sync software that
keeps my laptop in sync with my desktop machine.

test test test .

--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
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Arno Wagner
Guest
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
Quote:
In article <462gu0t9vcernodg05i2dpn5oe1hskbn1g@4ax.com>,
Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> wrote:
On 14 Jan 2005 08:06:40 -0800, "Irwin" <ebct@hotmail.com> wrote:


You also need several generations of backup, and never overwrite your
best backup. (this applies to disks and re-writable media.)

Common consens here is 3 or more independent media sets in rotation.
If you keep backups for a longer time, add media sets. And be prepared
to have to restore from the second-newest set.

Quote:
Unless you've actually tested a restore to bare iron you don't
know if your disaster recovery plan will work when you need it.

Not a media reliability issue, but very true! I had to do this once
(it worked), and since then I try this once a year or so with a spare
disk to be sure.

Quote:
These days I do image backups to a pair of big disks in another
computer on my LAN, (these disks are synced in case one dies) and I
backup my data (mostly "My Documents") with some sync software that
keeps my laptop in sync with my desktop machine.

So-so from the point of reliability. Should be o.k.. Good for
convenience.

Quote:
test test test .
And be sure what you actually test for!


Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
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Arno Wagner
Guest
Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Tape Backup Reply with quote
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Quote:
Neil Maxwell <neil.maxwell@intel.com> writes:
CDR and DVDR are more reliable if verified, as you stated, but the
long-term life of them is unpredictable. If you're only counting on
them for 3 month lifetimes, you're probably OK, but if you want them
to last for a few years or more, you're playing with fire.

High quality CDR (e.g. Mitsui Archive Gold) have undergone a lot of
testing and seem to be quite stable for long periods. The jury is
still out for DVDR. Hard drives contain all kinds of seals, filters,
lubricants on mechanical parts, and flash memory parameters and
firmware dependent on floating charges, all of which can decay over a
period of years. Hard drives are quite unreliable for long term
storage.

Indeed. The only good solutions for long-term storage is professional
tape intended for long-term storage (check the specs), MOD and (to a
lesser degree, since it is newer technology) DVD-RAM.

If you don't drop or overheat them, HDD reliability if fine for
regular backups. (Backup != long-term storage.)

I agree that DVD+/-R(W) is unclear at the moment. However the
German computer magazine c't does regular tests of burner/medium
combinations and has burned disks evaluated with professional
equipment. It does not look good. The same "speed before
reliability" marketing-driven philosophy that we know from CD-R
seems to be the current trend there.

Arno
--
For email address: lastname AT tik DOT ee DOT ethz DOT ch
GnuPG: ID:1E25338F FP:0C30 5782 9D93 F785 E79C 0296 797F 6B50 1E25 338F
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus
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