| Author |
Message |
George Macdonald
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:50:05 +0100, Jan Vorbrüggen
<jvorbrueggen-not@mediasec.de> wrote:
| Quote: | Happens with checks too, though, and is specifically obviously when
going between countries with different currencies in both cases.
The Euro has helped a lot in Europe by making the only way to
charge for such transaction transparent.
Nope, this has nothing to do with currency conversion though that can be
used to obscure the issue to the customer - it's to do with bank cronyism,
misrouting & spurious commissions.
However, the Euro has removed the rationale for the banks that they had
additional costs associated with cross-country transfers compared to intra-
country transfer. I believe there is an EU regulation now that says such
costs cannot exceed those charged for tranfers within the country. In fact,
I can now enter an IBAN on the interaccount transfer form, where before I
could enter only the Germany-internal number (called BLZ).
|
I'm sure it's also a relief to to be able to bypass those sleazy
money-changers at frontiers & airports.:-)... at least in the Euro-zone.
Those people are emm, irritating - came across it at Gatwick last year
where they would not do an exchange of US$ traveller cheques into Euros
directly and wanted their double take.... bastards.
I'm not sure what's available to us now in the U.S. in the way of
international transfers from our on-line banking; I know that in the past,
when requesting a transfer to a specific account in a foreign country, they
overtly misrouted to the point of abuse.
As for bank charges on transfers, they will get their pound of flesh, one
way or another.
--
Rgds, George Macdonald |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
George Macdonald
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:48:45 +0000, Ken Hagan <K.Hagan@thermoteknix.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | George Macdonald wrote:
Cash? Here, cash means $-bills.
True, but perhaps an enlightening slip on my part. Being fairly
young (ho ho), I've never really had to do much mucking about
with cheques. They were yesterday's technology in the 1980s when
I started banking. Perhaps as a result, I just don't get the
piece of mind that you obviously get from messing about with
bits of dead tree.
|
Bits of dead trees are good for the environment - they umm, lock up
CO2.<titter>
Too young and inexperienced to have been screwed by a bank yet... or a
fraudulent or mistaken billing?:-) Are you also going to tell us you've
never had any "trouble" with computer communications?;-) I've already
enumerated why I have refused to "trust" a debit card vs. a credit card but
Lynn Wheeler provided:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/block/2005-05-09-debit-cards_x.htm.
I understand that chip & PIN is still fairly new, it's still not clear that
it offers sufficient protections to all parties -- the debate is ongoing
AIUI and appears that the consumer gets the short straw so far -- and I
haven't seen it here yet but if it means I have to monitor my account
online everyday for abuses I'd rather not bother. It seems that when new
"smart" systems are devised to foil crooks, they are, in general, only one
step behind the system - IOW I want more evidence than the mealy-mouthed
assurances of the pin & chip lobby.
Sounds to me like you're a strong candidate for a RFID implant... something
else I'll pass on.:-)
--
Rgds, George Macdonald |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
George Macdonald
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 13:20:51 +0000, Ken Hagan <K.Hagan@thermoteknix.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | Ken Hagan wrote:
George Macdonald wrote:
Cash? Here, cash means $-bills.
True, but perhaps an enlightening slip on my part.
But not such an enlightening reply. What I meant to add (and
then lost during editing) was that plastic *is* cash hereabouts
and grubby pieces of paper or bent metal are just for buying
sandwiches or drinks. I hardly ever pay with legal tender for
items over (say) 10 pounds. It just feels wrong.
|
I dunno what you're problem is - cheques are not, IME, usually "grubby" and
where cash/bills are not practical, the credit card works very well... and
offer a level protection I can live with... plastic enough for you? If
someone can convince me that the chip part of chip & PIN really does
protect me, now *and* in the future, I may change my opinion on it. Given
the experience with other forms of electronic protection, e.g. chipped car
keys, I'm not very hopeful.
--
Rgds, George Macdonald |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keith
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 04:32:39 +0000, Maynard Handley wrote:
| Quote: | In article <pan.2005.12.10.16.53.54.402110@att.bizzzz>,
Keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:10:36 +0100, Zak wrote:
George Macdonald wrote:
And the money goes into another account, the holder of which is tracable.
Nope they just rack up a huge bill on your card.
Hmm... I think they took quite a while to be convinced that that is
possible. Seems to be "understood" now and handled the same way as CC
fraud.
A certified cheque is guaranteed - the money has already been debited
from
my account. I can go get it at the bank branch around the corner from my
office the day before I pick up the car -- takes 5mins. -- and it's still
my money until I inspect the car and hand it over.
Sounds like an excellent idea... something missing at least in the
Netherlands.. money you can only spend in one place.
Yes, and it even goes further than money, it's also a contract for loan
all in one. I still "bank" with a credit union some 200mi. away (where I
lived a decade or so ago). When I need a car loan I simply call them and
tell them the specifics (VIN, model, type, any special equipment, and how
much money I want). They then FedEx a check to me the next day. Now mind
you, I've not filled out *any* forms for a loan. The check is made out
to both parties so not only is the check only good if both the dealer
and I endorse it. By endorsing the check I've agreed to the terms of the
loan agreement. I've bought a half dozen cars this way and the process
works very smoothly.
There is ALWAYS a way for things to screw up, especially if malicious
people are involved.
|
Of course, and I think That was George Macdonald's point. The more
automated ("computerized") the more people trust the system and the easier
it is to game.
| Quote: | My friends bought a car about a month ago and paid
with a certified check. Next day the dealer called up, claimed the check
had disappeared, further claimed that *they* had stolen the check, and
that as a result he was not going to transfer title to them. Our working
assumption is that he concluded, after the deal, that he should have
charged more and wanted to unwind the deal. This took about five hours
of screaming on the phone, two days of trying to explain to this moron
how certified checks worked, involving various visits to the bank where
he kept insisting that his understanding of the way certified checks
worked was superior to that of the bank manager, a day spent at the
police (based on his claim, subsequently dropped for lack of evidence)
that my friends had stolen the check, and finally the hiring of a lawyer
to get this guy to shut up.
|
How about prosecuting the dealership for *FRAUD*. Fraud is a felony which
carries *JAIL* time. A supoena or a little discovery would get them to
move rather quickly. Dealerships are in a bad way when it comes to civil
suits. Criminal liability is a whole nother thing.
| Quote: | On the one hand, yes there is certainly protection in a certified check.
On the other hand, it is sad that the protection is only financial and
does not protect you from crooks intent on harassing you. But can
anything protect you from that?
|
A "certified check" isn't really money. There are many scams with even
these. Bank checks are better, but still not perfect. Neither will stop
fraud though.
--
Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ketil Malde
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:51 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Keith <krw@att.bizzzz> writes:
| Quote: | I don't pay for checking, but would pay for most other sorts of
transactions. If I didn't often have to pay for ATM withdrawals
I'd use them more, perhaps. The system here is simply set up for
checks.
|
Certainly a good point. There was a bit of commotion in the banking
business here when a new bank was established without any office you
could actually visit, or tellers, or anything - it's all on the net.
I've happily used it for years now.
BTW, I'm fairly certain the deprecation of cheques, and introduction
of ATM/debit cards have *reduced* fraud a lot, but I couldn't find the
relevant statistics anywhere. Similarly, it wouldn't suprise me if
the deprectaion of cash (even the cafeteria lets me pay with my card,
it's only the coke vending machine left) to have that effect on crimes
like pickpocketing and robbery, but that would be harder to measure.
-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Ketil Malde <ketil+news@ii.uib.no> writes:
| Quote: | Certainly a good point. There was a bit of commotion in the banking
business here when a new bank was established without any office you
could actually visit, or tellers, or anything - it's all on the net.
I've happily used it for years now.
BTW, I'm fairly certain the deprecation of cheques, and introduction
of ATM/debit cards have *reduced* fraud a lot, but I couldn't find the
relevant statistics anywhere. Similarly, it wouldn't suprise me if
the deprectaion of cash (even the cafeteria lets me pay with my card,
it's only the coke vending machine left) to have that effect on crimes
like pickpocketing and robbery, but that would be harder to measure.
|
part of the issue was that financial institutions rather than covering
the costs of performing the operations with checks by charging the
person ... was able to recoup the costs with the 5-7 day float. the
issue with atm is that the transfer is immediate and there is no
float. with check21 (fed. reserve mandate for electronic check
imaging) and movement to same-day clearing, the float starts to
disappear in checking also. at which point, with float disappearing,
they will have to start charging for checks processing also.
there was big issue in e-check pilot by fstc (digitally signed
electronic checks) ... whether the electronic check clearing (transfer
of value) went thru the atm network (immediate transfer) or the ach
network (overnight settlement). settling thru the ach network, allowed
for a day's float. the problem was that consumers had gotten so used
to the perception of "free" (with actual revenue for the bank coming
from the lost interest to the customer thru the float) ... that it was
felt that it wouldn't be possible to educate consumers on there really
is no free lunch. simple economics ... doing an operation costs
something. the revenue to cover the costs of that operation has to
come from somewhere.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Dean Kent wrote:
| Quote: | "Keith" <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.12.04.16.34.57.563325@att.bizzzz...
zVM session(s) can be running on one (or several) of the hardware
partitions, as well. It's not either/or.
Yes, I am aware of that, but I was responding to what I believed was an
implication that Linux w/ zVM was used only to 'use up wasted cycles' rather
than a strategic choice.
...a mere bag of shells.
chuckle....
Yep, tell the major banks of the world that mainframes are only for legacy
apps (many of whom I deal with
regularly in my present position, and I am working with Unix, not Linux...
on the
mainframe! And Linux is even more popular for mainframe use).
|
The Amdahl (sp?) port or ???
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Dean Kent wrote:
| Quote: | "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net> wrote in message
news:M5Kkf.122575$qk4.89070@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
What non-Linux Unix varient runs on Z series, or have we subtlely switched
the topic here?
Nope, it is IBM's variant. ;-)
In the late '90s, IBM decided to get on the Unix bandwagon and developed a
version of MVS called Open MVS, which was a POSIX compliant Unix
implementation. That didn't fare too well, so they ended up rolling it
into ESA, and called it Unix System Services (USS). It now runs as a set of
address spaces (one that is typically called OMVS), with Assembler and C
API's for accessing file system, network and other Unix services.
|
Yes it's POSIX, I'm less sure it's UNIX, in terms of coming from an AT&T
base. I can't remember if their version ran ASCII or not, there was a
port which did ASCII, but that was LONG ago for me, and may be wistful
thinking.
| Quote: |
On what systems are they running check processing? I am not aware of
anyone
besides IBM and Unisys who make MICR readers, etc.
I don't know exactly what applications these banks are all running, as my
area is storage management. I only know that they are having to manage many
hundreds of thousands of Unix files on the mainframe (backup/recovery,
etc.). Many of them would be Websphere files, but I am sure there are other
apps being used as well. There has also been some interest in backing up
Linux files to mainframe storage devices (for a common storage management
process).
|
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Sander Vesik wrote:
| Quote: | In comp.arch Stephen Fuld <s.fuld@pleaseremove.att.net> wrote:
"Rob Stow" <rob.stow@sasktel.net> wrote in message
A former co-worker of mine wears a bunch of IT hats for the Royal Bank of
Canada. RBC is Canada's largest bank and apparently their US operations
put them up there with some of the larger American banks also.
They have mainframes running mostly Unix, and their apps are decidely
*not* legacy apps.
What non-Linux Unix varient runs on Z series, or have we subtlely switched
the topic here? If it is not Z series, or one of the other "traditional"
mainframe systems from the "BUNCH", what architecture s it? I have heard a
lot of systems called "mainframes", where that terminology is at best, "in
dispute".
Yep, but what a large portion of banks do run these days are those
"mainframes" of disputed terminology.
The banking industry has simply changed too much for them to continue
using legacy apps - they have little software that is more than five years
old.
On what systems are they running check processing? I am not aware of anyone
besides IBM and Unisys who make MICR readers, etc.
Is check processing really a significat part of banking any more?
I would guess that check processing is one of the driving factors in |
funding for OCR research. Really bad innput, highly important to get
right, large volume. One more place big business is screwing the
customer, now that banks don't have to return your check but can provide
some transaction record instead, you have no piece of paper to bring to
court if that becomes necessary.
Without a way to prove what was on the check you have more problems and
the banks have less cost.
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
Casper H.S. Dik wrote:
| Quote: | a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com (The little lost angel) writes:
I'm not giving up my cheque book. Electronic banking has given me
nothing but headaches, 3 different systems including one supposedly
best in my region have made me decide to be a Luddite as far as this
one is concerned.
You're confusing "Internet banking" (were customers directly interface
with the bank's computers) with electronic money transfers.
The US cheque system works like this (correct me if I'm wrong):
- I give someone a piece of paper
- they send it to their bank
- their bank sends it to my bank
- after a while money is transferred, often piecemeal.
the transfer system as it existed since the, I think, fifties, works like this:
- you tell me were to send the money (account #)
- I write this on a piece of paper and give it to *my* bank
- My bank deposits it directly into your account
And for the past 50 odd years this has never really taken more than
a few days....
I never needed to mail a check my whole life (except once to the US :-).
|
You cut your own grass, repair your own furnace, don't need a
babysitter, and never have a kid shovel your walk... or you are really
trusting and pay cash for all of these services. Because in the US
people want to get paid for small services, and electronic transfer is
either inconvenient or just not accepted.
The check gives you proof that you paid, and gives them proof that you
offered payment, even if it bounces.
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
George Macdonald wrote:
| Quote: | I'm sure it's also a relief to to be able to bypass those sleazy
money-changers at frontiers & airports.:-)... at least in the Euro-zone.
Those people are emm, irritating - came across it at Gatwick last year
where they would not do an exchange of US$ traveller cheques into Euros
directly and wanted their double take.... bastards.
I'm not sure what's available to us now in the U.S. in the way of
international transfers from our on-line banking; I know that in the past,
when requesting a transfer to a specific account in a foreign country, they
overtly misrouted to the point of abuse.
|
You can buy International Money Orders, at banks (and I think the post
office).
| Quote: |
As for bank charges on transfers, they will get their pound of flesh, one
way or another.
|
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Davidsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
David Brown wrote:
| Quote: | Why would you need to do that? The car salesman's bank can talk to the
buyer's bank - the financing is handled electronically. The idea that
the one bank would write out a sum on a bit of paper to be carried
manually to the seller, who then takes it to their bank sounds absurdly
old-fashioned. The money is going to be transferred from the one bank
to the other bank anyway, so why the carrier-pigeon era paperwork?
|
Paper trail. Knowing how easy it is to fake images and electronic
records people still want *paper*. And if I ever had to go to court I
would definitely expect my paper to be believed over their screendump.
We have lots of special effects in the media, people don't believe
electronics as much as they once did.
--
bill davidsen
SBC/Prodigy Yorktown Heights NY data center
http://newsgroups.news.prodigy.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
| Quote: | Paper trail. Knowing how easy it is to fake images and electronic
records people still want *paper*. And if I ever had to go to court I
would definitely expect my paper to be believed over their screendump.
We have lots of special effects in the media, people don't believe
electronics as much as they once did.
|
Oh nonsense. Nobody's going to perform the sort of forensics required to
proove that a check hasn't been doctored with. That's FBI stuff that runs
into the thousands of dollars just to obtain the evidence, not to speak
of the ensuing costs of pursiung a claim in court.
When the paper is scanned, all you need to do is to digitally sign the
image - voila, at a later time you can easily proove, or disproove, that
the image has not been modified in the meantime and that it actually has
been made by the organization and machine that claims to have made it.
In its way that is more secure than anything the physical world has to
offer.
Jan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
| Quote: | You cut your own grass, repair your own furnace, don't need a
babysitter, and never have a kid shovel your walk... or you are really
trusting and pay cash for all of these services. Because in the US
people want to get paid for small services, and electronic transfer is
either inconvenient or just not accepted.
|
For all but the furnace repair, I pay cash. For the furnace repair, either
I get a bill and I do EFT, or I skimp on VAT together with the repairman -
then there's no bill, and I pay cash because even a check would be incri-
minating evidence 8-).
Jan
PS: For the record: tongue in cheek only, of course I would never think
of defrauding the government of its fair share in commerce! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
|
|
| Quote: | there was big issue in e-check pilot by fstc (digitally signed
electronic checks) ... whether the electronic check clearing (transfer
of value) went thru the atm network (immediate transfer) or the ach
network (overnight settlement). settling thru the ach network, allowed
for a day's float. the problem was that consumers had gotten so used
to the perception of "free" (with actual revenue for the bank coming
from the lost interest to the customer thru the float) ... that it was
felt that it wouldn't be possible to educate consumers on there really
is no free lunch. simple economics ... doing an operation costs
something. the revenue to cover the costs of that operation has to
come from somewhere.
|
Certainly true - but Check21 processing _reduces_ those costs massively
compared to the current situation anyway. And - at least hereabouts - the
banks get their cut mainly from paying a low or zero interest rate on the
amount in your account. They do pass on cost savings: If I do an EFT using
the paper form, I pay 30 cents; if I do it via online banking (i.e., _I_
am their data-entry clerk, OCR still not being up to the job for the hand-
written forms with sufficient accuracy and recognition rate), I pay only
5 cents. Quite likely, they are still better off for the online banking
variant, but I take those 25 cents gladly nonetheless.
Jan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in