| Author |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:55:02 -0800, dgay wrote:
This thread seems to have had a large dose of "This is the
way things are done in the US, so it must be the right way".
Nope, just the opposite. The Europeons were telling us that
we're wrong and they're right. "Right" is simply what works.
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All extant things work, or they'd have been abandoned long ago.
For whom and how they work varies, of course.
There's a continuum between telling about something that works,
and implying others are idiots for not doing it your way.
Sometimes people step across that line accidentally and
sometimes with malice. Therein lies many transatlantic disputes.
-- Robert |
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Tarjei T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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Del Cecchi wrote:
| Quote: | I guess it depends if the claimed devices are hypothetical or if Sam's has
evidence they actually existed, eg one of the devices. It seems to me
that they would be foolish to float this story if they had no actual
evicence. People say a lot of things about Walmart Corp, but foolish
doesn't seem to be one of them.
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These devices are not hypothetical. People using them have been caught in
Norway.
If my memory is not faulty, it is comparativily common technique used by
Eastern Europe criminal gangs.
greetings, |
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Tarjei T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
| Quote: | Soon, all that will remain is an ephemeral (sic) electronic record -
a low-resolution (240 dpi) scan of your check. Talking to one of the
manufactures of check processors, there is a provision to digitally
sign the data in the image, but none of their customers has requested
that feature yet.
So, good luck to you with your permanent and fixed record!
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What about the X number of backups and the archival record on Y magneto
optical disks?
After 10 years they don't have to keep records of the transaction any more.
greetings, |
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Tarjei T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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Mark Horsburgh wrote:
| Quote: | In the UK it's even better than that. If I see a transaction from an
authorized direct debitor that I don't like, I can simply ask my bank to
give me a refund - something they are _required_ to do immediately
without even consulting the organisation that originated the bad
transaction. It's then up to the originator to chase me for the money. I
don't have any regular bills that I don't pay this way and it's far less
hassle than any other means of payment.
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I use internet banking. I don't know if there is a diffferent routine for
those who are't using internet banking.
In my (Norwegian) bank, I have to authorize all direct debit requests. I get
a list of all companies which offer to use direct debit for bills. I always
get a paper bill in the mail in advance every time they want my money.
There is also electronic billing. I have to authorize those payments
individually.
greetings, |
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Casper H.S. Dik
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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"Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei@online.no> writes:
| Quote: | Del Cecchi wrote:
I guess it depends if the claimed devices are hypothetical or if Sam's has
evidence they actually existed, eg one of the devices. It seems to me
that they would be foolish to float this story if they had no actual
evicence. People say a lot of things about Walmart Corp, but foolish
doesn't seem to be one of them.
These devices are not hypothetical. People using them have been caught in
Norway.
If my memory is not faulty, it is comparativily common technique used by
Eastern Europe criminal gangs.
|
Skimming devices and pin recording camera's were very common in
Holland too (as were skimming cashiers at petrol stations).
Common to the point that they modified all ATMs to have protruding
cardreaders which makes adding and additional reader nearly impossible;
we're also taught to shield the pin pad from view above.
Casper
--
Expressed in this posting are my opinions. They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth. |
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Del Cecchi
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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"Tarjei T. Jensen" <tarjei@online.no> wrote in message
news:43a3d257$1@news.broadpark.no...
| Quote: | Del Cecchi wrote:
I guess it depends if the claimed devices are hypothetical or if Sam's
has evidence they actually existed, eg one of the devices. It seems
to me that they would be foolish to float this story if they had no
actual evicence. People say a lot of things about Walmart Corp, but
foolish doesn't seem to be one of them.
These devices are not hypothetical. People using them have been caught
in Norway.
If my memory is not faulty, it is comparativily common technique used
by Eastern Europe criminal gangs.
greetings,
Sorry, I meant that the use of the devices in this case not the existence |
of such devices.
del |
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Keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 20:41:36 +0800, prep wrote:
| Quote: | Del Cecchi <cecchinospam@us.ibm.com> writes:
And about the wonders of those debit cards.... DECEMBER 14, 2005
(COMPUTERWORLD) - A victim of the recent Sam's Club security breach
suggests that fraudsters may have stolen credit card information by
using illegal "card-skimming" devices attached to the pumps at the
company's gas stations. The fraudulent activity may also have been
going on for a longer period than that suggested by the wholesale
giant, and it may affect thousands of people (see "Update:
This happened in Sydney some time ago. 2nd card reader on the bowser
slot, plus tapping into the security camera to sholder surf the
pins...
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That reminds me of a night-deposit box scam. One Friday night the
scammers simply taped a note across the night-depost box saying that it
was broken and to use the temporary one around the corner. The temporary
box was chained to the building with a sturdy enough looking chain and
lock. Monday morning, before the bank opened, the perps came by with a
truck, unlocked the large lock, and took the box away.
--
Keith |
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Keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 22:41:39 +0000, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: | In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:55:02 -0800, dgay wrote:
This thread seems to have had a large dose of "This is the
way things are done in the US, so it must be the right way".
Nope, just the opposite. The Europeons were telling us that
we're wrong and they're right. "Right" is simply what works.
All extant things work, or they'd have been abandoned long ago.
For whom and how they work varies, of course.
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Existence theorem: It is, therefore it is. I remember learning of the
theorem when I turned thumbs-down on a particular transmission line
(memory data bus, IIRC) in the 3033. By the numbers, it didn't meet spec.
The come-back was that we should recall every 370/168 in existence then.
That particular net was lifted from there. I still flagged it as being a
rule violation (CMA ;).
| Quote: | There's a continuum between telling about something that works, and
implying others are idiots for not doing it your way. Sometimes people
step across that line accidentally and sometimes with malice.
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Arrogance, either way.
| Quote: | Therein lies many transatlantic disputes.
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<shrug>
--
Keith |
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Bernd Paysan
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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Keith wrote:
| Quote: | It's not so much trust as cost (at least for me). I expect a
free checking account with free transactions. If there is some
fancy new feechur that they're going to charge me money for (e.g.
on-line banking), I don't want it.
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Banks don't charge for that here, they give you a discount. If you don't do
paper-work transactions, it saves money for the bank. I expect my bank to
give me free transactions on whatever medium they provide, be it check,
debit card, or internet. As long as they have my money for some time, they
could make a profit out of that, which should be good enough for them.
Banks here charge for using paperwork. Not all, not all to the same extend,
but they somehow force you to use electronic transactions, because they can
reduce costs that way.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ |
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
| Quote: | Banks don't charge for that here, they give you a discount. If you
don't do paper-work transactions, it saves money for the bank. I
expect my bank to give me free transactions on whatever medium they
provide, be it check, debit card, or internet. As long as they have
my money for some time, they could make a profit out of that, which
should be good enough for them.
Banks here charge for using paperwork. Not all, not all to the same
extend, but they somehow force you to use electronic transactions,
because they can reduce costs that way.
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.... it cost banks less money ... reminds me of the tv commercials
about buying things on sale ... and all the money you save (especially
things that you might not otherwise buy ... but, what the heck, look
at all the money you are saving).
not quite as bad as the story about company loosing $5 on every item
sold ... but they were planning to make it up in volume.
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ |
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Keith
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:54 pm Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 09:34:33 -0700, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
| Quote: |
Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
Banks don't charge for that here, they give you a discount. If you
don't do paper-work transactions, it saves money for the bank. I
expect my bank to give me free transactions on whatever medium they
provide, be it check, debit card, or internet. As long as they have
my money for some time, they could make a profit out of that, which
should be good enough for them.
Banks here charge for using paperwork. Not all, not all to the same
extend, but they somehow force you to use electronic transactions,
because they can reduce costs that way.
... it cost banks less money ... reminds me of the tv commercials
about buying things on sale ... and all the money you save (especially
things that you might not otherwise buy ... but, what the heck, look
at all the money you are saving).
not quite as bad as the story about company loosing $5 on every item
sold ... but they were planning to make it up in volume.
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Hmm, sounds like the .bomb business plan.
--
Keith |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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| Quote: | Your "plastic" is certainly *not* more secure - that's my experience and
everyone I know has had glitches with a credit card transaction at one
time. With that background, why would I want a risky transaction dipping
directly into my bank account? Sure you can contest it and maybe get
things put right but until you do, you're short by the amount in dispute.
Getting money back is a lot harder to do than contesting the transaction
before you settle.
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Not hereabouts. For instance, if I allow one of the companies who get my
money regularly - even once annually - to do a direct debit, within six weeks
of the transaction all I need to do is go to my bank and ask it to cancel the
transaction, and I have my money back. Of course the other party will be
pretty pissed-off with that - such cancelment costs them around 15 Euros,
IIRC - and the business relationship will likely suffer pretty badly - but
hey, that's a measure of last resort that you'd untertake only if the rela-
tionship already is down the tubes.
In more than 25 years I haven't needed to do that once...but it's good to
know one can do that.
| Quote: | With that in mind I have to ask why credit cards never took off in Europe
as well as in the U.S.?
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Because the alternatives that were available were considered "better" in some
sense of the world. There was a time when one needed a credit card mainly for
trips outside Europe (in particular, to the US) and as a deposit for car
rental.
| Quote: | I know that some countries had govt. regulations on personal debt at one
time or another but is that not a thing of the past now?
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Certainly never a consideration in Germany.
.... or was it because merchants did not want to pay the banks their
That for sure.
| Quote: | Is it possibly more difficult to get a credit card in Europe?
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Probably easier, I'd say.
Jan |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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| Quote: | Utter rubbish - neither side wants to spend the $$ but if worst comes to
the worst, a doctored/authentic cheque is light stuff. Color lasers?...
every single one has its serial # on every doc produced.
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Ah yes - so because it's so easy, Wal-Mart et al. eat their share of the
6 billion USD in retail check fraud annually? And the banks their share of
the 600 million USD left at their door step, even after they have doctored
the rules to their utmost advantage? Pray tell.
| Quote: | Yeah and electonic filing/archiving was supposed to replace paper years
ago...
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The reason this has happened has to do with how human perception works -
it's just easier to read a nice large piece of papers than a limited screen.
Money transactions are a different kettle of fish.
Jan |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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| Quote: | Authorization? I gave no one "authorization". Once someone has
your account number they can charge whatever they decide to. It's
fraud, but hey...
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That's in principle true here as well. However, you can cancel the
transaction as needed, and I believe my bank will want positive statements
from both parties concerned before they allow this to happen again. So
after the first cancelment, your ISP would have been out of luck.
People have tried this type of scam here, but AFACT they're usually caught
pretty quickly. The banks (and therefore we, their customers) likely carry
a large amount of the damage that is caused, but that damage is socialised 8-).
Jan |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: AMD to leave x86 behind? |
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| Quote: | What about the X number of backups and the archival record on Y magneto
optical disks?
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Yeah, all that's good and well - but first you need to get at 'em, and then
what will the rules of evidence say when the various versions disagree in
content? And you first have to suspect that somebody is trying to defraud
you by changing the image. If the data were signed by the scanner, it would
be SOP to verify the signature.
Generally, you can have technical (e.g, digital signatures) or organisational
(e.g., trust) measure to protect integrity. At some point, you will need to
ground in trust - if only in believing mathematicians that one can't break
RSA 8-). But organisational measure are always difficult to verify after the
fact, especially in a distributed environment, so suitable technical measure
should ba taken - in addition to buidling as much truast as possible - as
soon as possible.
Jan |
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