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Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do a w |
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Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative? I work for the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the individual to
another position and then hire a replacement. I don't have any clue
what would happen in the private sector, would they do the same, or
just fire the individual? Sorry for the off-the-wall question, but I
would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
joe |
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Headache
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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Pretend to take them for a coffee and give them a good kicking instead.
I find the louder and more important someone sounds the less they
actually know. |
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Tim Wescott
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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jjlindula@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative? I work for the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the individual to
another position and then hire a replacement. I don't have any clue
what would happen in the private sector, would they do the same, or
just fire the individual? Sorry for the off-the-wall question, but I
would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
joe
Usually it starts the same way, but if they work at it they get fired. |
The smaller the company and/or the more assertive the manager the
quicker they're out the door.
Of course if it's the manager who's troubled or uncooperative (and
sometimes ineffective but good at hiding it) then it's your coworkers
who go, but not the manager -- for a while at least.
This is not surprising: If you aren't psychopathic it is _really_
difficult to let someone go. Everyone knows all the excuses, so the bad
apples will make themselves sound like good apples (they will often even
think so -- few people set out to be ***holes). Worse, you can have
good people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time and aren't
pulling their weight even if the had been at their last place and will
be at their next. Finally, there is often high emotion when someone is
let go.
So in a corporate environment a middle manager will avoid letting
someone go as long as possible: the only times I really saw someone
being let go at close to the "right" times were once by an extremely
conscientious, by-the-book manager, and once by a manager who just
thrived on conflict.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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Fred Marshall
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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<jjlindula@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133926362.623331.309010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative? I work for the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the individual to
another position and then hire a replacement. I don't have any clue
what would happen in the private sector, would they do the same, or
just fire the individual? Sorry for the off-the-wall question, but I
would appreciate any comments.
Thanks,
joe
|
Joe,
One who is effective, troubled and uncooperative might still be highly
valued!
With good management, an employee who is ineffective today can often be
assigned to things more appropriate - not necessarily out of engineering.
For example, some engineers are good engineers, good project engineers in a
team of 1 but not good team leaders. So, if the ineffectiveness is in team
leadership - you don't give 'em a team to manage! The trick is in
recognizing the issue.
There are no rules. Industry is often like government as you've described
it. And, people also get fired for being ineffective or for any number of
reasons.
Fred |
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Mike Yarwood
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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"Jim Thomas" <jthomas@bittware.com> wrote in message
news:11pdsgejfknluc8@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Tim Wescott wrote:
So in a corporate environment a middle manager will avoid letting someone
go as long as possible:
That's what I've seen too. Usually the incompetent are let go during a
downturn when an executive decision to pare down the work force is made.
Then the manager has to let /someone/ go, so it only makes sense to get
rid of the deadwood.
I think that's the way it's supposed to work but it often doesn't. Instead |
they say "we'll have to make some redundancies before X months time" and
anyone who doesn't have a strong personal reason for staying and has a bit
of self-confidence leaves for a job with better prospects. After a round of
lay-offs like that you can end up with a smaller bunch of really good
engineers (those with strong reasons not to leave the area at that time) and
all your original deadwood too. You now have a situation where the
drone/worker ratio has increased
Best of Luck - Mike |
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Peter K.
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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John E. Hadstate wrote:
| Quote: | I hasten to point out that this approach was disasterous
from a business perspective: the company that I helped build
was first spun off by its German parent, then looted, and
finally put out of business by competition from Mexico (that
I helped develop). It's part of the circle of life, and
proof that there is a God, after all ;-)
|
;-) I' d like to hear about that in more detail!
Ciao,
Peter K. |
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John E. Hadstate
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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<jjlindula@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133926362.623331.309010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the
newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to
know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering
co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative? I work for
the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned
collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the
individual to
another position and then hire a replacement. I don't have
any clue
what would happen in the private sector, would they do the
same, or
just fire the individual? Sorry for the off-the-wall
question, but I
would appreciate any comments.
|
After serving 25 years in the private sector (Fortune 100
company), I don't think there are any hard-and-fast answers
to your question. I have seen people "carried" for years
and years, then terminated by being offered early
retirement. I have seen competent people marginalized-out
because their managers were incapable of adapting to new
technologies. (Marginalizing a competent engineer is a
politically-risky but often effective way of getting him to
leave voluntarily.) There was a much higher tolerance for
incompetence than for "rocking the boat". During the last 5
years I was with them, "go along to get along" was really
the order of the day.
I hasten to point out that this approach was disasterous
from a business perspective: the company that I helped build
was first spun off by its German parent, then looted, and
finally put out of business by competition from Mexico (that
I helped develop). It's part of the circle of life, and
proof that there is a God, after all ;-) |
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Jim Thomas
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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Tim Wescott wrote:
| Quote: | So in a corporate environment a middle manager will avoid letting
someone go as long as possible:
|
That's what I've seen too. Usually the incompetent are let go during a
downturn when an executive decision to pare down the work force is made.
Then the manager has to let /someone/ go, so it only makes sense to
get rid of the deadwood.
--
Jim Thomas Principal Applications Engineer Bittware, Inc
jthomas@bittware.com http://www.bittware.com (603) 226-0404 x536
Visualize whirled peas. |
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Eric Jacobsen
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:45 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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On 7 Dec 2005 07:17:02 -0800, "Peter K." <p.kootsookos@iolfree.ie>
wrote:
| Quote: |
John E. Hadstate wrote:
I hasten to point out that this approach was disasterous
from a business perspective: the company that I helped build
was first spun off by its German parent, then looted, and
finally put out of business by competition from Mexico (that
I helped develop). It's part of the circle of life, and
proof that there is a God, after all ;-)
;-) I' d like to hear about that in more detail!
Ciao,
Peter K.
|
Yeah, those kinds of stories are always good.
Everybody likes to stick it to da man. ;)
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org |
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Tim Wescott
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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porterboy76@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | I work for the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the individual to
another position...
I've only been in industry a while, and this last approach, promoting
the incompetent, caught me completely by surprise. Excuse my wide eyed
innocence, but doesn't that completely defeat the purpose of company
evolution, survival of the fittest and so on. In the end, the
incompotent float to the top, and there is a raft of superfluous,
misguided management. I have to say, this has really shocked me!!!! Why
aren't these no hopers just given the boot?
To some extent I think it's a misinterpretation of the book "The Peter |
Principal", where the writer found it interesting that people floated up
to their level of incompetence. Now we think that we're supposed to
select the most incompetent member of the team to be manager, and if you
need someone to manage managers, well...
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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Joel Kolstad
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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<porterboy76@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133986433.031223.120650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I've only been in industry a while, and this last approach, promoting
the incompetent, caught me completely by surprise.
|
It's called, "The Peter Principle."
| Quote: | Excuse my wide eyed
innocence, but doesn't that completely defeat the purpose of company
evolution, survival of the fittest and so on. In the end, the
incompotent float to the top, and there is a raft of superfluous,
misguided management. I have to say, this has really shocked me!!!! Why
aren't these no hopers just given the boot?
|
If they were once in a position where they were competent, there's a degree of
"support structure" that they'll have developed that'll make it politically
difficult to get rid of them. (And realistically speaking, if they really
were competent at _something_, they don't deserve to be fired, they deserve to
be demoted back to what they _were_ good at.) Unfortunately, this "support
network" tends to turn into "the good old boys" network the higher up in a
company you go. The measurement of "uccess at the top (did the company make a
profit last year?) tends to become far more subjective (since there are
limitless reasons why, even with good management, a company can lose money)
than it is at the bottom (did Joe Sixpack actually show up for his 9AM shift
and produce his quota of 600 widgets today?). It really does become similar
to government politics -- when things go well, management takes credit for it,
but when they don't, there's no shortage of whipping boys and excuses.
I've also been at companies where the HR department was so worried of being
sued for wrongful termination that the red tape they made managers go through
to document poor performance and eventually fire someone was so onerous that
some managers figured they rather keep a bad employee around. :-(
Still, there ARE plenty of really good companies out there if you do a little
digging... |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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| Quote: | I work for the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the individual to
another position...
|
I've only been in industry a while, and this last approach, promoting
the incompetent, caught me completely by surprise. Excuse my wide eyed
innocence, but doesn't that completely defeat the purpose of company
evolution, survival of the fittest and so on. In the end, the
incompotent float to the top, and there is a raft of superfluous,
misguided management. I have to say, this has really shocked me!!!! Why
aren't these no hopers just given the boot? |
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Richard Owlett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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|
John E. Hadstate wrote:
| Quote: | jjlindula@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133926362.623331.309010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the
newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to
know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering
co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative? I work for
the government
and what generally happens is that engineer is assigned
collateral
duties rather than engineering tasks, or you promote the
individual to
another position and then hire a replacement. I don't have
any clue
what would happen in the private sector, would they do the
same, or
just fire the individual? Sorry for the off-the-wall
question, but I
would appreciate any comments.
After serving 25 years in the private sector (Fortune 100
company), I don't think there are any hard-and-fast answers
to your question. I have seen people "carried" for years
and years, then terminated by being offered early
retirement. I have seen competent people marginalized-out
because their managers were incapable of adapting to new
technologies. (Marginalizing a competent engineer is a
politically-risky but often effective way of getting him to
leave voluntarily.) There was a much higher tolerance for
incompetence than for "rocking the boat".
|
Ahh, but "rocking the boat" can have very different results even in the
same company. Depends on supervisor whose boat is being rocked. I had
one who understood I "rocked only for cause". He left after correctly
foreseeing where company was headed. Next supervisor valued "peace and
tranquility". I "left" on request ;}
| Quote: | During the last 5
years I was with them, "go along to get along" was really
the order of the day.
I hasten to point out that this approach was disasterous
from a business perspective: the company that I helped build
was first spun off by its German parent, then looted, and
finally put out of business by competition from Mexico (that
I helped develop). It's part of the circle of life, and
proof that there is a God, after all ;-)
|
|
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Tim Wescott
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
|
|
Mike Yarwood wrote:
| Quote: | "Jim Thomas" <jthomas@bittware.com> wrote in message
news:11pdsgejfknluc8@corp.supernews.com...
Tim Wescott wrote:
So in a corporate environment a middle manager will avoid letting someone
go as long as possible:
That's what I've seen too. Usually the incompetent are let go during a
downturn when an executive decision to pare down the work force is made.
Then the manager has to let /someone/ go, so it only makes sense to get
rid of the deadwood.
I think that's the way it's supposed to work but it often doesn't. Instead
they say "we'll have to make some redundancies before X months time" and
anyone who doesn't have a strong personal reason for staying and has a bit
of self-confidence leaves for a job with better prospects. After a round of
lay-offs like that you can end up with a smaller bunch of really good
engineers (those with strong reasons not to leave the area at that time) and
all your original deadwood too. You now have a situation where the
drone/worker ratio has increased
Best of Luck - Mike
I have yet to work somewhere that announced the layoffs before they |
actually happened.
Even so, you have a round of layoffs & get rid of as much deadwood as
you can (or the people who threatened you with their competence,
depending on your mindset). The workload doesn't go down so the good
people who were staying on out of loyalty don't feel so loyal anymore,
and they leave, too. Then Management has to hire back the last few
folks who were laid off, who for some reason are feeling just a bit
usurious.
In "The Corporate Viagra Curve*" the ex CEO of GE (Peterson?) advocates
letting 10% of your people go each year. I've seen it tried and fail
through inattention by the higher-ups -- of course the idea was mandated
by the CEO at the corp. I was working at after he read a review of the
book; if he wasn't going to take the time to actually read the damn
thing how could he be expected to follow up on his edicts?
* Well, "Corporate Vitality Curve", but I like my title better.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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Glennaebad
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Question for Engineers in the Private Sector; What to do |
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<jjlindula@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133926362.623331.309010@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hello, I have a question that is off the topic from the newsgroup but
I want to get responses from engineers. I would like to know how
engineers in the private sector deal with engineering co-workers who
are ineffective, troubled or un-cooperative?
|
If they are female I believe they get spanked but only in some countries.
Glen |
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