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JustJohn
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:07 am Post subject:
Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a sim |
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Ah, this is interesting. Weng and I have been having this extended chat
on median filters (hope it did not bore anyone), and because it seems
that Weng is looking to develop something patentable, I had a look-see
over at USPTO. I find there is a recently (04, July) granted patent, US
6760737, which seems after wading through all the pat-speak
gobbledy-gook (which is mostly in the order of a proof (that can be
done a bit simpler)), to list my median circuit exactly. One paragraph
(col 4, lines 47-50) even describes the pipelining, not verbatim from
the XCell note, but close enough.
So has anyone else here had this happen? What was your reaction? On the
one hand, I'm pleased to see that I can generate patentable stuff (5
years earlier than filing date on this one), but on the other hand
mildly annoyed to see someone else's name there, and wishing I'd made
the filing myself. How would you react?
I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
Regards All,
John |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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JustJohn wrote ...
| Quote: | I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
|
Could Lucent come after you for using your own circuit? Of course the
answer is "yes." The more significant question is whether or not
Lucent would have a significant chance of winning a patent infringement
suit.
If you can demonstrate that your circuit was published or sold more
than 1 year before the priority date of Lucent's patent application,
then it would be difficult for Lucent to prevail in court.
| Quote: | Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
|
Generally it is difficult to estimate the value of a patent. In some
cases patent rights are sold, so for those patents there is an
established value. In other situations an infringement case is won by
the patent owner, or a settlement is agreed to; again some dollar value
is determined.
But in many situations a company has a portfolio of patents that keep
competitors at bay. Consider the situation where your company develops
and patents technology "A", and improvements A1, A2, etc. If these
patent allow you to achieve a monopoly they can be quite valuable.
But perhaps I am you competitor and to avoid your patents and to stay
in the marketI develop and patent B, B1, B2, etc.
Within a few years we are developing parallel, but distinct
technologies. There may be some advantages to the A series, and there
may be different advantages to the B series, but it is hard to put a
dollar value on each of our technologies. Our patents are important to
our businesses, the help us maintain a douopoly, and they may prevent
the other party from implementing certain improvements. But how much
are they worth?
Richard Tanzer |
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Pete Fraser
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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"John_H" <johnhandwork@mail.com> wrote in message
news:auWpf.7$be1.202@news-west.eli.net...
| Quote: | It's sad to see plagiarism. It's ridiculous to have someone make a living
off it.
|
It's not always entirely the "inventor's" fault.
About 30 years ago I was playing around
with a Shannon-Rack for audio d/a conversion.
My then boss was insistent that I should patent it.
The fact that it was called the Shannon rack didn't
seem to be enough of a clue that it had been
invented by Shannon.
Things got quite heated for a few days before he relented. |
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John_H
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Since there are 54 patents with "Inventor Name" including "Jiang" and
"Assignee Name" including "Lucent" I'm guessing this guy gets paid based on
how many patents he churns out.
I would contact the Lucent General Counsel (the lawyers) and *ask* them if
they would like to know of a patent based on plagiarized ideas. Most of the
claims are for "The method" which you appear to have developed. You can
supply the general counsel with supporting documentation.
It's sad to see plagiarism. It's ridiculous to have someone make a living
off it.
"JustJohn" <john.l.smith@titan.com> wrote in message
news:1135044436.644317.150800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Ah, this is interesting. Weng and I have been having this extended chat
on median filters (hope it did not bore anyone), and because it seems
that Weng is looking to develop something patentable, I had a look-see
over at USPTO. I find there is a recently (04, July) granted patent, US
6760737, which seems after wading through all the pat-speak
gobbledy-gook (which is mostly in the order of a proof (that can be
done a bit simpler)), to list my median circuit exactly. One paragraph
(col 4, lines 47-50) even describes the pipelining, not verbatim from
the XCell note, but close enough.
So has anyone else here had this happen? What was your reaction? On the
one hand, I'm pleased to see that I can generate patentable stuff (5
years earlier than filing date on this one), but on the other hand
mildly annoyed to see someone else's name there, and wishing I'd made
the filing myself. How would you react?
I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
Regards All,
John
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johnp
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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John -
You mention the patent describes the Median Filter, but does it
actually claim it in the claims section? A patent can describe
anything, but the last section of the patent (the claims) is where
the patent actually claims what the invention is. If it isn't in the
claims, it is not being patented.
John Providenza |
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Mike Treseler
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:39 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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JustJohn wrote:
| Quote: | ... Weng and I have been having this extended chat
on median filters, and because it seems
that Weng is looking to develop something patentable, I had a look-see
over at USPTO. I find there is a recently (04, July) granted patent, US
6760737, which seems to list my median circuit exactly.
... but on the other hand
mildly annoyed to see someone else's name there, and wishing I'd made
the filing myself. How would you react?
|
I would be annoyed as well, but I expect I would let it go.
Thanks for the posting. I have often found it
curious that there are so many posters
with very specific questions but no fundamental
knowledge in the area. Now we know one reason why.
Online patent phishing sweatshops.
| Quote: | I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
|
It might be worth an appointment
with an attorney to determine your best move,
but I think the risk is low.
Large corporations collect patents to defend
the cash-cows of the moment from other corporations.
| Quote: | Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
|
I think patents are a type of insurance policy
for large corporations. Very few lawyers or engineers
have become rich or famous because of a patent.
A patent citation on a resume doesn't look bad,
but a list of publications looks even better to me.
-- Mike Treseler |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Ray Andraka wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Treseler wrote:
I think patents are a type of insurance policy
for large corporations. Very few lawyers or engineers
have become rich or famous because of a patent.
A patent citation on a resume doesn't look bad,
but a list of publications looks even better to me.
-- Mike Treseler
Mike, I agree wholeheartedly. Generally speaking, a patent is only as
good as your resources available to defend it. For an individual, the
cost sunk into obtaining a patent will likely never be recovered unless
it has bulletproof claims, is important enough to be essential and
interesting to a company that might buy it, and you've got enough
financial wherewithall to defend your patent if someone does infringe it.
I also agree, publications look better on a Resume than patents. Both
are attractive, but the publications carry more weight with me.
|
yeh, seems to me its is usually somthing like; BigCompanyA has alot of
(more
or less) valid patents so that when BigCompanyB claim they infringe on
one of their patents, they can counter sue claiming they infringe on
one of their patents, eventually they reach a settlement and agree to
go after everyone else instead.
-Lasse |
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Ray Andraka
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Mike Treseler wrote:
| Quote: |
I think patents are a type of insurance policy
for large corporations. Very few lawyers or engineers
have become rich or famous because of a patent.
A patent citation on a resume doesn't look bad,
but a list of publications looks even better to me.
-- Mike Treseler
|
Mike, I agree wholeheartedly. Generally speaking, a patent is only as
good as your resources available to defend it. For an individual, the
cost sunk into obtaining a patent will likely never be recovered unless
it has bulletproof claims, is important enough to be essential and
interesting to a company that might buy it, and you've got enough
financial wherewithall to defend your patent if someone does infringe it.
I also agree, publications look better on a Resume than patents. Both
are attractive, but the publications carry more weight with me. |
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Jim Granville
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Jon Elson wrote:
| Quote: |
JustJohn wrote:
Ah, this is interesting. Weng and I have been having this extended chat
on median filters (hope it did not bore anyone), and because it seems
that Weng is looking to develop something patentable, I had a look-see
over at USPTO. I find there is a recently (04, July) granted patent, US
6760737, which seems after wading through all the pat-speak
gobbledy-gook (which is mostly in the order of a proof (that can be
done a bit simpler)), to list my median circuit exactly. One paragraph
(col 4, lines 47-50) even describes the pipelining, not verbatim from
the XCell note, but close enough.
So has anyone else here had this happen? What was your reaction? On the
one hand, I'm pleased to see that I can generate patentable stuff (5
years earlier than filing date on this one), but on the other hand
mildly annoyed to see someone else's name there, and wishing I'd made
the filing myself. How would you react?
I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
No. You can destroy their patent by showing where you published it
earlier. Of course, they COULD, actually sue you for using their (invalid)
patent, but your defense should be so easy, it would be a bad idea for
them to
do so.
|
There are too many could and should's here, when dealing with lawyers :)
A good recent (and still alive, AFAIK) example of the first class
sillyness of (too many) patents, and the decisions to litigate, is
Microchip (who should know better) suing Zilog (who are quite small) for
making Microcontrollers with fewer IO pins, than internal BUS width.
A slew of questions arise out of this, none of which has anything to
do with innovation.
What next - cars with fewer doors than cylinders patented ?
A sea of prior art exists, going way, way back to the Intel 4004,
plus patents are supposed to not be obvious to onw skilled in the art.
Maybe tiny Zilog really does have Microchip scared - but I would
have thought Microchip could safely ignore Zilog, and find many better
areas for their energies and funds ?
| Quote: | But, the guys who invented the intermitent windshield wiper
and the capillary blood sample tube both went to their graves after 20+
years of litlgation, only to win the cases AFTER they died!
|
Examples like these serve to confirm that patents are simply feeding
troughs for lawyers.
-jg |
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Jon Elson
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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JustJohn wrote:
| Quote: | Ah, this is interesting. Weng and I have been having this extended chat
on median filters (hope it did not bore anyone), and because it seems
that Weng is looking to develop something patentable, I had a look-see
over at USPTO. I find there is a recently (04, July) granted patent, US
6760737, which seems after wading through all the pat-speak
gobbledy-gook (which is mostly in the order of a proof (that can be
done a bit simpler)), to list my median circuit exactly. One paragraph
(col 4, lines 47-50) even describes the pipelining, not verbatim from
the XCell note, but close enough.
So has anyone else here had this happen? What was your reaction? On the
one hand, I'm pleased to see that I can generate patentable stuff (5
years earlier than filing date on this one), but on the other hand
mildly annoyed to see someone else's name there, and wishing I'd made
the filing myself. How would you react?
I would think the patent is useless, because I'd already shown the
method, but am wondering if the state of law is such that Lucent could
come after me for using my own circuit.
No. You can destroy their patent by showing where you published it |
earlier. Of course, they COULD, actually sue you for using their (invalid)
patent, but your defense should be so easy, it would be a bad idea for
them to
do so.
| Quote: | Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
Some patents are worth billions of $. See some of the patent wrangling |
and licensing between Intel and some of their competitors. I think TI
has had some big patent cases in the past couple years, too. There was
a big
Xilinx patent that was finally decided this year, IIRC.
The kind of thing you describe is actually quite common, as in many cases
the earlier work may not be clearly published. If you have an XCell
applications
note available on the web, or on print form, that sounds like sufficiently
clear publication to me.
If somebody with deep pockets doesn't come along to infringe your patent
or offer to license it, then you will never know whether your patent is
valuable or not! If a billion $ corporation infringes your patent, and you
are successful in suing them for that, then it could be worth a LOT of
dough. But, the guys who invented the intermitent windshield wiper
and the capillary blood sample tube both went to their graves after 20+
years of litlgation, only to win the cases AFTER they died!
I don't recommend any individual waste their time patenting anything
unless it is a blockbuster, and they have the pockets to defend the thing
against all comers.
Jon |
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JustJohn
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, an open apology |
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johnp wrote:
| Quote: | John -
You mention the patent describes the Median Filter, but does it
actually claim it in the claims section? A patent can describe
anything, but the last section of the patent (the claims) is where
the patent actually claims what the invention is. If it isn't in the
claims, it is not being patented.
John Providenza
|
Having had a little more time, I've read through the patent in
excruciating detail now, and it turns out that despite being identical
in the first stages and the last stage, Mr. Jiang (umm, Dr. Jiang?)
does something very slightly different in the middle. Instead of using
4 comparisons to sort out guaranteed non-median values, he uses a
control vector based on ths second stage sort of the first stage
medians. This control vector presumably configures 3:1 muxes (he
glosses over that, using only the word "locate" in his diagram), and
allows using only 2 comparisons to my 4. So he's outdone my circuit!
(at least in terms of total comparisons; the two 3:1 muxes actually use
more FPGA LUT fabric than the two comparisons, because the carry-logic
is free in this context). I humbly apologise to Hong Jiang for any
untoward remarks.
Regards all,
Just John |
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Kolja Sulimma
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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JustJohn schrieb:
| Quote: | Corrolary question...Do most patents just make money for lawyers and
add to the writer's resumes? Or do a majority have actual worth beyond
that?
|
IBM estimates that patents do them 10x as much harm as they earn from
their patent portfolio.
This means that the main use for patents is to defend yourself against
patent trolls.
Kolja Sulimma |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Hi John,
After I read your paper in Xilinx Tip Design, I searched the USPTO with
your name and found no result. It really surprised me.
Your result was worth filing a patent absolutely!
Try to get your company boss's support and you have the right to
invalidate the Lucent patent with rock solid prove.
Good luck.
Weng |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Hi John,
Jiang's provisional patent was filed on Mar. 27, 2000, more than 4
years earlier than the patent approval date: July 6, 2004.
What is the published date of your paper?
That is the most important factor deciding who is the first person to
get the circuit. It is not only a circuit, but a fundamental method
covering all similar circuits.
Weng |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Patents and (possible) Plagiarism, Anyone ever been in a |
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Hi Richard,
I am asking a question:
"If you can demonstrate that your circuit was published or sold more
than 1 year before the priority date of Lucent's patent application,
then it would be difficult for Lucent to prevail in court. "
Why one year before the priority date of Lucent's patent application?
In this case, John published his paper 5 years ago, Jiang's priority
date is January 16, 2001. It seems that the patent was filed to be
within one year of John's paper. Doesn't it mean their paper and patent
application has no relationship? Could you please give more
explanation?
Weng |
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