| Author |
Message |
Grant Edwards
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
On 2005-12-24, ajcrm125 <ajcrm125@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | But isn't that how Intel was founded?
|
What?! Are you on crack?
| Quote: | Didn't they reverse engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own
|
No. IBM used the Intel 8088 and later the 8086. Both were
100% Intel designs. IBM also evaluated the Motorola 68K
family, but the 8-bit bus version wasn't going to be available
in time.
| Quote: | (or was it the 8080). In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent
CPUs for a while before they went full force with PPC.
|
I don't remember hearing about that. Got any references?
| Quote: | And then there's AMD who's still doing it.. etc..etc.
|
Several vendors have made Intel-architecture compatible CPUs.
All were either licensed from Intel or reverse engineered from
Intel processors.
--
Grant Edwards
grante@visi.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
rk
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
http://www.intel.com/museum/online/hist_micro/hof/
"ajcrm125" <ajcrm125@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1135393423.728304.164860@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
--
rk, Just an OldEngineer
"The number of people having any connection with the project must be
restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good
people." -- Kelly Johnson, as quoted in _Skunk Works_ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajcrm125
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Grant Edwards wrote:
| Quote: | On 2005-12-24, ajcrm125 <ajcrm125@gmail.com> wrote:
But isn't that how Intel was founded?
What?! Are you on crack?
Didn't they reverse engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own
No. IBM used the Intel 8088 and later the 8086. Both were
100% Intel designs. IBM also evaluated the Motorola 68K
family, but the 8-bit bus version wasn't going to be available
in time.
Someone reversed engineered something back in the day.. I just can't |
remember who. I'll do some digging.
| Quote: | (or was it the 8080). In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent
CPUs for a while before they went full force with PPC.
I don't remember hearing about that. Got any references?
Yep... me. :-) I work for IBM and back when I joined we were making |
486's called "Blue Lightning"
| Quote: | And then there's AMD who's still doing it.. etc..etc.
Several vendors have made Intel-architecture compatible CPUs.
All were either licensed from Intel or reverse engineered from
Intel processors.
Reverese engineered.. there ya go. :-) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajcrm125
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Interesting reading... this is not the case of reverse engineering I'm
reffering to above, this is just another example:
"While exactly copying a processor's microarchitecture would be
illegal, creating a compatible product through the use of an original
"clean room" design is legally protected. According to Halfhill, Intel
clearly reverse-engineered AMD's products, a tactic AMD and other X86
chip designers have used to quickly catch up to Intel's historical
leadership in the design of new microprocessors." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck F.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
ajcrm125 wrote:
| Quote: |
But isn't that how Intel was founded? Didn't they reverse
engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own (or was it the 8080).
In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent CPUs for a while before
they went full force with PPC. And then there's AMD who's still
doing it.. etc..etc.
|
Utter nonsense. Intel developed the 4004, then the 8008, and the
8080 was an outgrowth of that. Intels primary business at the time
was memory, including RAM and ePROMs. Their purpose in developing
uCs was to expand their memory business. The 8086/8 were further
developments of the 8080, and were licensed to AMD.
At that time engineers had a lot more sense than they seem to
today, and wouldn't consider designing in a sole-source part. Thus
the license was a business necessity. The AMD license lasted
through the 286, IIRC, after which AMD designed their own CPUs.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Alfke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Let me clarify:
Intel developed and designed the 4004, then 8008, which evolved into
the 8080. Then there ws the race to 16 bits: Intel 8086, Motorola
68000, and Zilog Z8000.
Intel also made an economy-version of the 8086, called 8088 (8-bit bus
insted of 16-bit), and IBM picked this intel 8088 for their PC. IBM was
not in the commodity microprocessor business in those days, and IBM
never manufactured 8086-like chips.
And then there is the story how Bill Gates sold them an operating
system that he was about to acquire...Facts can be stranger than
fiction.
Peter Alfke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Alfke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Let me clarify:
Intel developed and designed the 4004, then 8008, which evolved into
the 8080. Then there ws the race to 16 bits: Intel 8086, Motorola
68000, and Zilog Z8000.
Intel also made an economy-version of the 8086, called 8088 (8-bit bus
insted of 16-bit), and IBM picked this intel 8088 for their PC. IBM was
not in the commodity microprocessor business in those days, and IBM
never manufactured 8086-like chips.
And then there is the story how Bill Gates sold them an operating
system that he was about to acquire...Facts can be stranger than
fiction.
Peter Alfke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bernard
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Peter Alfke wrote:
| Quote: | Let me clarify:
Intel developed and designed the 4004, then 8008, which evolved into
the 8080. Then there ws the race to 16 bits: Intel 8086, Motorola
68000, and Zilog Z8000.
Intel also made an economy-version of the 8086, called 8088 (8-bit bus
insted of 16-bit), and IBM picked this intel 8088 for their PC. IBM was
not in the commodity microprocessor business in those days, and IBM
never manufactured 8086-like chips.
|
They did!
There were several 386 and 486 level chips designed and manufactured by
IBM based on the agreement with Intel. IBM 386SLC, 486SLC and 486BL
series are the examples. The chips carried Intel's and IBM's copyrights
and incorporated a reasonable amount of cache. I still have some PS/2
computers with IBM 486SLC2 and SLC3 CPUs inside.
Then IBM served several x86 companies as chip foundry. They did it at
least for NexGen, Cyrix and AMD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kolja Sulimma
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
ajcrm125 schrieb:
| Quote: | How would I be violating anything if I made a Z8000 equivalent design
in Verilog/VHDL? I mean, if they had source for it, and I tweaked it
slightly and called it my own, I can see where that crosses the line.
But reverse engineering a design from its databook and creating a clone
isn't copyright infringement from what I understand.
What do you think?
|
ISAs are not protected under copyright law. (The ISA documents and the
CPU design are, but not the ISA)
The real pitfall are patents. As Peter noted all original pantents
should be invalid by now, but
- there might be some patents that Zilog filed that were only granted
many years later. These might be still alive. Check USPTO in that case.
Sometimes companies threaten people with patents that were granted, but
for which they stop paying patent fees years ago.
- even when building an old school uC you will likely use modern
concepts some of which might be patented by zilog or others.
Companies like to invoke trademarks and trade secrets in the context.
For the former just make sure that you do not use z8000 as the name of
your processor but use it only in a descriptive way. ("Executes z8000 ISA")
For the latter make sure, that you do not know any trade secrets from
zilog. E.g. that you have never signed an NDA for an z8000 errata sheet
or anything like that.
I would not worry too muc, but h I agree with Peter that it might be a
good idea to try to get zilog on board. They might like what you do and
provide you with advice, contacts, etc.
Kolja Sulimma
Sidenote:
There is a story about a guy who built an Apple-I clone recently and got
sued by apple. When Steve Wozniak realized that he informed the guy that
he never signed off exclusive rights to apple.
Moral: Never believe a company that threatens you. Allways demand proof. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anton Erasmus
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:20:15 GMT, "Monte Dalrymple"
<monted@systemyde.com> wrote:
[snipped]
| Quote: | I doubt that those schematics survive though, as they predated
the era of document control at Zilog.
|
I often wonder how many products never got developed further because
of lost documents at companies. Also how many companies can truly
recover if somwhow they had to start from scratch with only their
documentation in config control.
Regards
Anton Erasmus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck F.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
Anton Erasmus wrote:
| Quote: | "Monte Dalrymple" <monted@systemyde.com> wrote:
[snipped]
I doubt that those schematics survive though, as they predated
the era of document control at Zilog.
I often wonder how many products never got developed further
because of lost documents at companies. Also how many companies
can truly recover if somwhow they had to start from scratch with
only their documentation in config control.
|
Believe it or not, adequate documentation and control predates the
use of computers by a considerable margin. It involved such things
as file cabinets with suitably dimensioned drawers to hold original
drawings, prepared on paper and mylar, sometimes with India Ink,
the use of Ozalid machines, proper parts list, etc.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Monte Dalrymple
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
"Chuck F. " <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:D4idnfQAhvXC-TDeRVn-pA@maineline.net...
| Quote: | Anton Erasmus wrote:
"Monte Dalrymple" <monted@systemyde.com> wrote:
[snipped]
I doubt that those schematics survive though, as they predated
the era of document control at Zilog.
I often wonder how many products never got developed further
because of lost documents at companies. Also how many companies
can truly recover if somwhow they had to start from scratch with
only their documentation in config control.
Believe it or not, adequate documentation and control predates the
use of computers by a considerable margin. It involved such things
as file cabinets with suitably dimensioned drawers to hold original
drawings, prepared on paper and mylar, sometimes with India Ink,
the use of Ozalid machines, proper parts list, etc.
|
Oh, the documentation existed, and it was in the control of Shima, the
designer. But once he left the company I don't know who, if anyone,
inherited his filing cabinet. It wasn't until much later that such design
materials were kept in a centralized location with a control number
and access/revision control. Even then, sometimes things went in to
DC never to be found again, so designers hated to give the original
stuff up to DC.
Monte |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ajcrm125
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
I collect classic arcade games and am looking to do a remake of the
troublesome Pole Position boardset. I then stumbled on this page:
www.fpgaarcade.com
and loved the idea. The PPI and PPII boardsets are Z8000 based.
-Adam
================
www.onecircuit.com
================ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Alfke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
AMD received the transistor diagrams as part of the second-source
agreement, and they then reverse-engineered a logic diagram. (I know,
for I was involved).
AMD is a bigger, and perhaps more organized company.
But this is all some 27 years ago...
Peter Alfke
=============
Monte Dalrymple wrote:
| Quote: |
Oh, the documentation existed, and it was in the control of Shima, the
designer. But once he left the company I don't know who, if anyone,
inherited his filing cabinet. It wasn't until much later that such design
materials were kept in a centralized location with a control number
and access/revision control. Even then, sometimes things went in to
DC never to be found again, so designers hated to give the original
stuff up to DC.
Monte |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MikeJ
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: RTL for Z8000 series CPU? |
|
|
I looked at doing a conversion of the game, but the main problem is the CPU.
Having done most of the debugging work on the T80 core, which required
running a real cpu in parallel with the soft core and triggering the
analyser when they went separate ways - I can assure you it is a lot of work
to get it cycle accurate.
I am going to release the source of the Namco customs I have reverse
engineered some time soon, some of them are on the Pole Position board which
may help.
Cheers,
MikeJ
www.fpgaarcade.com
"ajcrm125" <ajcrm125@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135447235.214449.17090@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | I collect classic arcade games and am looking to do a remake of the
troublesome Pole Position boardset. I then stumbled on this page:
www.fpgaarcade.com
and loved the idea. The PPI and PPII boardsets are Z8000 based.
-Adam
================
www.onecircuit.com
================
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in