| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Ray |
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|
 |
David R Brooks
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Ray wrote:
| Quote: | GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Ray
|
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|
| Back to top |
|
|
Everett M. Greene
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
| Quote: | Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
|
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karel
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> schreef in bericht
news:11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these
type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and various
beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
|
I'm afraid you misunderstood Michael.
As I read him, he stated that aviation GPS units
base on much more reliable data than "personal" GPS's
(though I'm not sure what this latter amounts to).
So "apples" = personal GPS units' data,
"oranges" = aviation GPS units' data.
Confirming your idea that pilots want and
generally get quite correct info from their GPS units.
As for uncharted shoals and their aviation equivalents:
what about danger, restricted, and forbidden areas?
In certain countries these are in almost permanent change,
requiring an alert database manager and frequent updates.
For myself, I should much welcome the advent of a
community driven database of pilot's navigation info,
a bit like DAFIF but more up to date,
that could be used by public domain GPS software.
And am much willing to contribute to any such initiative
within the limits of my poor abilities.
Best rgds & season's wishes,
KA (student pilot) |
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| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Owlett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
Michael R. Kesti wrote:
| Quote: | "Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
|
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael R. Kesti
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
karel wrote:
| Quote: | "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> schreef in bericht
news:11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com...
Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and various
beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
I'm afraid you misunderstood Michael.
|
I, too, think that this is the case.
| Quote: | As I read him, he stated that aviation GPS units
base on much more reliable data than "personal" GPS's
(though I'm not sure what this latter amounts to).
|
I am referring to the handhelds that sell in the 100's of dollars range,
such as those such as the Magellan unit I own, and for which there is no
way to obtain updated data.
| Quote: | So "apples" = personal GPS units' data,
"oranges" = aviation GPS units' data.
|
That is precisely what I meant and I cannot imagine that pilots trust
their lives to the former. This is evidenced by the disclaimers that are
displayed every time I power up my Magellan.
| Quote: | Confirming your idea that pilots want and
generally get quite correct info from their GPS units.
|
Correct.
| Quote: | As for uncharted shoals and their aviation equivalents:
what about danger, restricted, and forbidden areas?
In certain countries these are in almost permanent change,
requiring an alert database manager and frequent updates.
For myself, I should much welcome the advent of a
community driven database of pilot's navigation info,
a bit like DAFIF but more up to date,
that could be used by public domain GPS software.
And am much willing to contribute to any such initiative
within the limits of my poor abilities.
Best rgds & season's wishes,
KA (student pilot)
|
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at comcast dot net | - The Who, Bargain |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gene S. Berkowitz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
In article <11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com>, rowlett@atlascomm.net
says...
| Quote: | Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
|
A pilot is not using a consumer-oriented GPS. He is using an aviation
GPS, with a Jeppesen database of beacons, approaches, and airports, that
is maintained via a monthly subscription.
--Gene |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael R. Kesti
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
| Quote: | David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
|
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mrkesti at comcast dot net | - The Who, Bargain |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karel
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
"Gene S. Berkowitz" <first.last@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:MPG.1e178d2230f15b2e9896f4@newsgroups.comcast.net...
| Quote: | In article <11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com>, rowlett@atlascomm.net
says...
Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on
these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a
PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used
in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no
where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
A pilot is not using a consumer-oriented GPS. He is using an aviation
GPS, with a Jeppesen database of beacons, approaches, and airports, that
is maintained via a monthly subscription.
|
Is he (and/or she)? Each one? Really?
Sure and guaranteed? How can you know?
On my side I HAVE seen pilots fly with "consumer-oriented"
GPS-units, though not as a primary means of navigation, luckily.
And don't come and tell me about "certified" units:
unless I'm much mistaken not any single GPS unit has been certified
by any single European civil aviation authority.
KA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gene S. Berkowitz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:58 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
In article <43adc6da$0$24900$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be>,
adelcoGENE@zeverSKYNET.BE says...
| Quote: |
"Gene S. Berkowitz" <first.last@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:MPG.1e178d2230f15b2e9896f4@newsgroups.comcast.net...
A pilot is not using a consumer-oriented GPS. He is using an aviation
GPS, with a Jeppesen database of beacons, approaches, and airports, that
is maintained via a monthly subscription.
Is he (and/or she)? Each one? Really?
Sure and guaranteed? How can you know?
|
They're the ones who DON'T fly into the terrain, or stray into
controlled airspace, or radio traffic control asking "Where am I?"
| Quote: | On my side I HAVE seen pilots fly with "consumer-oriented"
GPS-units, though not as a primary means of navigation, luckily.
And don't come and tell me about "certified" units:
|
I didn't. Aviation units are designed to display the information of
interest to pilots, and to easily integrate with the other avionics
aboard the aircraft.
| Quote: | unless I'm much mistaken not any single GPS unit has been certified
by any single European civil aviation authority.
|
...but that probably has more to do with the lack of European
manufacturers than any inherent problems with the devices themselves...
--Gene |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck F.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:59 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
Richard Owlett wrote:
| Quote: | Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
.... snip ...
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any -
they each want to protect their turf. More seriously, I
was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran
smack into Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it
simply wasn't shown on the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts,
would be my conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much
better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives" to
the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the
data used in personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less
often updated, and no where near as trustable as that used in
the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports
and various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted
shoals?
|
I seem to remember a plane crash a few years ago, attributed to
failure to show a mountain on some electronic chart. I think it
was in S. America.
--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randy M. Dumse
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
"Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote in message
news:11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
|
I was flying my Twin Cessna 310 out of Pheonix at night going east.
North east of Tuscon, while Flight Following, VOR, and GPS had me in a
valley, I was sure I saw rocks in the sky ahead. Cross check of
altimeter and GPS also showed us higher than local terain, but we could
definitely see mountian peeks on each side of us, towering maybe
thousands of feet higher than we were. It just didn't look like we were
going to clear the next ridge ahead. No stars to the horizon there, as
there were many other places around us, only blackness. So dispite
assurances of all instruments and data, we advised Flight Following we
were going to error on the side of caution, and climbed. They
understood. Did we avoid anything? We'll never know. We lived through
it, though. That was enough.
Ultimately the aircraft pilot or ships captain is responsible for the
craft's and passenger's saftey. Pilots often die when they get fixated
on one source of information, and ignore any data to the contrary.
Nature often corrects their impression on how it "has to be" by instead
being "what it actually is".
I think what has been confused in this conversation is 1) the position
data from the GPS, which should be remembered is just data, one point of
reference in a suite of navigation instruments, and 2) the information
in the data base. Any functional GPS gives pretty good position data
within the limitations of spec'd accuracy. The map is another issue
entirely. Generally people don't put up new mountains to run into, but
they sure do build new TV towers, etc. A pilot should have a current
sectional, and be checking it for highest projections from the ground,
that's makered specifically by area. The idea that your GPS database map
is a substitute for a recent sectional is pretty dangerous thinking.
--
Randy M. Dumse
www.newmicros.com
Caution: Objects in mirror are more confused than they appear. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anton Erasmus
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:52:22 -0500, Gene S. Berkowitz
<first.last@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com>, rowlett@atlascomm.net
says...
Michael R. Kesti wrote:
"Everett M. Greene" wrote:
David R Brooks <davebXXX@iinet.net.au> writes:
Ray wrote:
GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Don't know about standards, but I wouldn't expect any - they each want
to protect their turf.
More seriously, I was browsing a boating magazine in my doctor's rooms
recently, & hit an article in which a yachtsman nearly ran smack into
Diego Ramirez Is. (near Cape Horn), because it simply wasn't shown on
the electronic chart he was using.
Don't trust your life to one of those electronic charts, would be my
conclusion. (I doubt the land maps are much better).
Tell that to aircraft pilots who do "trust their lives"
to the accuracy of the GPS info.
This seems an apples to oranges comparison as I imagine the data used in
personal GPS receivers is less accurate, less often updated, and no where
near as trustable as that used in the GPS receivers used in aviation.
Is all this a apples-oranges comparison?
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
A pilot is not using a consumer-oriented GPS. He is using an aviation
GPS, with a Jeppesen database of beacons, approaches, and airports, that
is maintained via a monthly subscription.
|
I think the relevent term is "should" be using an aviation GPS.
Unfortunately as more comsumer oriented devices comes on the market,
the chances of pilots using inapropriate quality GPS systems
increases. This is very much equivalent in the embedded market where
general prupose PC based systems are employed where they have no
business of being empoyed.
Regards
Anton Erasmus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Owlett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
Guess I proved how little I know ;)
Thanks to all who answered.
Randy M. Dumse wrote:
| Quote: | "Richard Owlett" <rowlett@atlascomm.net> wrote in message
news:11qrbnurgr83u82@corp.supernews.com...
Would not a pilot be interested in exact location of airports and
various beacons? would there be any equivalent of uncharted shoals?
I was flying my Twin Cessna 310 out of Pheonix at night going east.
North east of Tuscon, while Flight Following, VOR, and GPS had me in a
valley, I was sure I saw rocks in the sky ahead. Cross check of
altimeter and GPS also showed us higher than local terain, but we could
definitely see mountian peeks on each side of us, towering maybe
thousands of feet higher than we were. It just didn't look like we were
going to clear the next ridge ahead. No stars to the horizon there, as
there were many other places around us, only blackness. So dispite
assurances of all instruments and data, we advised Flight Following we
were going to error on the side of caution, and climbed. They
understood. Did we avoid anything? We'll never know. We lived through
it, though. That was enough.
Ultimately the aircraft pilot or ships captain is responsible for the
craft's and passenger's saftey. Pilots often die when they get fixated
on one source of information, and ignore any data to the contrary.
Nature often corrects their impression on how it "has to be" by instead
being "what it actually is".
I think what has been confused in this conversation is 1) the position
data from the GPS, which should be remembered is just data, one point of
reference in a suite of navigation instruments, and 2) the information
in the data base. Any functional GPS gives pretty good position data
within the limitations of spec'd accuracy. The map is another issue
entirely. Generally people don't put up new mountains to run into, but
they sure do build new TV towers, etc. A pilot should have a current
sectional, and be checking it for highest projections from the ground,
that's makered specifically by area. The idea that your GPS database map
is a substitute for a recent sectional is pretty dangerous thinking.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blueeyedpop
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: GPS digital navigation map data |
|
|
saving up my nickles and dimes to get one, been doing the research.
NO, there is no common format. Far from it.
There is the GPX format which is meant to be a common ground.
There is a program called GPSBabel which is meant to translate most
manufactures to/from GPX and to each other.
AFAIK, most if not all can stream NEMA GPS data to their serial port which
can be read and translated. I had an old magellen that was meant to do this,
and did, however it was exceeding faulty, registering my Los Angeles home as
a moving target at some 700 mph...
I have been cosnidering Trails.com as a source of hiking trails, and had
hoped to join them and generate nice maps to follow. As it turns out, you
can trace a map, and export a GPX format route. I D/L'd Babel and converted
my route to CSV format, so it does function in that respect...
<Ray> wrote in message
news:43acd6f0$0$17708$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
| Quote: | GPS navigators such as TomTom, NavMan, Garmin, Magellan etc. become
increasingly popular.
Is there a common standard for the digital map data to be used on these
type
of small embedded devices in which optimal route calculation can be
calculated?
Is it possible to access this data through some API, to use it in a PC
application?
Ray
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
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