| Author |
Message |
bjzhangwn
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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I wanna to write a pci express endpoint ,and I don't have a idea that
if this is too difficult,But the ipcore from the fpga vendor are too
expensive!can someone give me some advice! |
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Tim Wescott
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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bjzhangwn wrote:
| Quote: | I wanna to write a pci express endpoint ,and I don't have a idea that
if this is too difficult,But the ipcore from the fpga vendor are too
expensive!can someone give me some advice!
I worked on a project not too long ago that involved a PCI (not PCI |
express) core in a Xilinx. I got to look over the shoulder of the guy
making it all work. We had purchased a PCI core from Xilinx, but he had
developed PCI cores in the past so he was a real expert.
It was _not_ a trivial project.
The PCI spec covers a lot of ground.
Taking care of all the corner cases takes a lot of work.
Even putting everything into the FPGA to provide the proper care and
feeding for the PCI core in such a way that the bus could provide the
speed that we needed wasn't trivial.
In my opinion hand-building a PCI core would be like hand building a car
-- it's possible, but it's not worth the time.
The only exception would be if you could be absolutely sure that your
project is only going to use a specific subset of the spec, and that you
are free to violate unused parts. I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot
pole, and there are very few folks that I would trust to "trim" such a
complex spec.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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Kevin Brace
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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Hi bjzhangwn,
Take a look at the reply I made to Tim Wescott.
My estimated cost of developing a PCI Express IP core is at least
$90,000 ($60,000 for bleeding-edge oscilloscope, $10,000 for four FET
probes, and $20,000 to $30,000 for PCI Express protocol analyzer.), and
is probably more in practice.
Assuming that you wanted to do your own PCB, that's probably another
$30,000 to $40,000. (PCB CAD tool + signal integrity analysis tool like
HyperLynx.)
My guess regarding the high cost of PCI Express IP cores is partially
due to the fact that developers need to recover the large investment
they made in the equipment, and that pushes up the cost of the IP core.
If PCI Express is too expensive to for you, you always got BDS XPCI PCI
IP core which can be purchased (licensed) for as little as $100 for
non-profit personal use.
Visit http://www.bracedesignsolutions.com for more information.
Kevin Brace
bjzhangwn wrote:
| Quote: | I see,But I need the softcore,and the the softcore provided by xilinx
or altera or the third party are too expensive,and there are no the
associate projects in the opencores website.
|
--
Brace Design Solutions
Xilinx (TM) LogiCORE (TM) PCI compatible BDS XPCI PCI IP core available
for as little as $100 for non-commercial, non-profit, personal use.
http://www.bracedesignsolutions.com
Xilinx and LogiCORE are registered trademarks of Xilinx, Inc. |
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Kevin Brace
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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Hi Tim,
I will second your opinion about PCI bus.
My company Brace Design Solutions did the "like hand building a car,"
and developed a PCI IP core from scratch.
And I agree with you that it was not a trivial project.
The project itself was further complicated by the fact that the PCI IP
core we developed had to be Xilinx LogiCORE PCI compatible pretty much
cycle by cycle.
Obscure features of Xilinx LogiCORE PCI needed to be implemented and
tested against the original.
We finally finished the project, and Verilog version of BDS XPCI PCI IP
core is now available for as little as $100 for non-profit personal use.
VHDL port is continuing, and should be done in a few weeks.
I also agree with your comment that making sure that the PCI IP core
works properly in all unusual corner cases is not easy, and requires a
PCI testbench that is far more elaborate than what most FPGA vendors'
provide with their PCI IP core.
BDS XPCI PCI IP core purchaser gets the same PCI testbench we used for
the verification of the PCI IP core, and is more elaborate than Xilinx's
Ping reference design's testbench.
Looking at the PCI Express specification (Ver. 1.0a), I think
PCI Express has taken the difficulty of developing an I/O (or bus)
interface to a new level.
Not only is the specification longer, the protocol of PCI Express seems
a lot more complicated than the Conventional PCI or even PCI-X.
Another problem of PCI Express I think is the cost of the equipment.
From what I understand, PCI Express requires a bleeding-edge
oscilloscope which normally cost around $60,000, plus around $10,000 for
four FET probes.
Wow, at that cost, one can buy two $35,000 luxury cars for the cost of
one small oscilloscope and several FET probes.
In addition to that, a protocol analyzer is required to understand the
protocol, and that is likely going to cost another nice $20,000 to $30,000.
I will appreciate if someone can confirm the equipment cost of
developing a PCI Express devices, but I suppose it can be lowered
somewhat by leasing the equipment rather than outright buying them.
I guess I don't like the idea of a lease, but perhaps that the only way
to get the equipment in some cases.
Perhaps, this $100,000 minimum (In practice much larger if other costs
like personnel cost is counted.) is the reason why there are so few
companies except for graphic card vendors sell PCI Express cards.
Kevin Brace
Tim Wescott wrote:
| Quote: | bjzhangwn wrote:
I wanna to write a pci express endpoint ,and I don't have a idea that
if this is too difficult,But the ipcore from the fpga vendor are too
expensive!can someone give me some advice!
I worked on a project not too long ago that involved a PCI (not PCI
express) core in a Xilinx. I got to look over the shoulder of the guy
making it all work. We had purchased a PCI core from Xilinx, but he had
developed PCI cores in the past so he was a real expert.
It was _not_ a trivial project.
The PCI spec covers a lot of ground.
Taking care of all the corner cases takes a lot of work.
Even putting everything into the FPGA to provide the proper care and
feeding for the PCI core in such a way that the bus could provide the
speed that we needed wasn't trivial.
In my opinion hand-building a PCI core would be like hand building a car
-- it's possible, but it's not worth the time.
The only exception would be if you could be absolutely sure that your
project is only going to use a specific subset of the spec, and that you
are free to violate unused parts. I wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot
pole, and there are very few folks that I would trust to "trim" such a
complex spec.
|
--
Brace Design Solutions
Xilinx (TM) LogiCORE (TM) PCI compatible BDS XPCI PCI IP core available
for as little as $100 for non-commercial, non-profit, personal use.
http://www.bracedesignsolutions.com
Xilinx and LogiCORE are registered trademarks of Xilinx, Inc. |
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bjzhangwn
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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|
I see,But I need the softcore,and the the softcore provided by xilinx
or altera or the third party are too expensive,and there are no the
associate projects in the opencores website. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Antti Lukats
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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|
"Kevin Brace" <sa0les1@brac2ed3esi4gns5olut6ions.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Mntrf.36310$BZ5.11211@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: | Hi bjzhangwn,
Take a look at the reply I made to Tim Wescott.
My estimated cost of developing a PCI Express IP core is at least $90,000
($60,000 for bleeding-edge oscilloscope, $10,000 for four FET
|
Hi Kevin,
its not that bad the $$$ money needed. For the endpoint core development
sufficent is to just get an PCIe FPGA board and those cost as low as 800
USD.
using that one card and the supplied ipcore it is defenetly possible to
develop own core.
what makes it un-reasonable is the amount of time investment needed what I
would
expect to be around one man year (when verfiied). So in case you have that
one year
of your life to 'invest' into the project it makes no sense to start.
"black" market PCIe cores with PHY are known to be offered for 50,000 USD
- what is way below of the costs of developing it, as the PHY is way more
complex
as the endpoint logic.
Anyway, if someone is really up to develop the PCIe endpoint core, I offer
setting
up the verification testbench for it, and maybe also do the FPGA testing for
it.
(I have done some preliminary work on the subject so I could re-use that
experience)
Antti |
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Kevin Brace
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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Hi Antti,
I don't share your optimism regarding PCI Express.
Yes, in theory, it is true that anyone can develop a PCI Express IP core
using a sub $1,000 PCI Express FPGA development board.
But in practice, one probably needs to have at least a PCI Express
protocol analyzer to understand what is going on in PCI Express.
And I don't think that is cheap. (I am guess it costs $20,000 to $30,000.)
My fear (Maybe that's not an appropriate word.) from reading the PCI
Express Base Specification Revision 1.0a is that the initialization
sequence (link training) is far more complex than anything Conventional
PCI had (RST# gets asserted 100ms after the computer is switched on.
64-bit PCI adds REQ64# assertion during RST# assertion to signal 64-bit
environment.).
So, because the protocol is far more complex, even someone like myself
who has developed a Xilinx compatible PCI IP core does have hard time
understanding the entire PCI Express protocol, especially the
initialization sequence. (I guess that the part I am stuck right now.)
Setting up the verification environment seems a lot more challenging
than Conventional PCI due to the fact that the protocol is a lot more
complex.
I have looked into the PCI Express checklist, and it seems much longer
and more detailed than Conventional PCI.
I must say that knowing Conventional PCI doesn't gets to too far with
PCI Express, perhaps, knowing how Ethernet works does.
Kevin Brace
Antti Lukats wrote:
| Quote: | "Kevin Brace" <sa0les1@brac2ed3esi4gns5olut6ions.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Mntrf.36310$BZ5.11211@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Hi bjzhangwn,
Take a look at the reply I made to Tim Wescott.
My estimated cost of developing a PCI Express IP core is at least $90,000
($60,000 for bleeding-edge oscilloscope, $10,000 for four FET
Hi Kevin,
its not that bad the $$$ money needed. For the endpoint core development
sufficent is to just get an PCIe FPGA board and those cost as low as 800
USD.
using that one card and the supplied ipcore it is defenetly possible to
develop own core.
what makes it un-reasonable is the amount of time investment needed what I
would
expect to be around one man year (when verfiied). So in case you have that
one year
of your life to 'invest' into the project it makes no sense to start.
"black" market PCIe cores with PHY are known to be offered for 50,000 USD
- what is way below of the costs of developing it, as the PHY is way more
complex
as the endpoint logic.
Anyway, if someone is really up to develop the PCIe endpoint core, I offer
setting
up the verification testbench for it, and maybe also do the FPGA testing for
it.
(I have done some preliminary work on the subject so I could re-use that
experience)
Antti
|
--
Brace Design Solutions
Xilinx (TM) LogiCORE (TM) PCI compatible BDS XPCI PCI IP core available
for as little as $100 for non-commercial, non-profit, personal use.
http://www.bracedesignsolutions.com
Xilinx and LogiCORE are registered trademarks of Xilinx, Inc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Antti Lukats
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
|
|
"Kevin Brace" <sa0les1@brac2ed3esi4gns5olut6ions.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Fkurf.37333$dO2.28554@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
| Quote: | Hi Antti,
I don't share your optimism regarding PCI Express.
Yes, in theory, it is true that anyone can develop a PCI Express IP core
using a sub $1,000 PCI Express FPGA development board.
But in practice, one probably needs to have at least a PCI Express
protocol analyzer to understand what is going on in PCI Express.
And I don't think that is cheap. (I am guess it costs $20,000 to $30,000.)
My fear (Maybe that's not an appropriate word.) from reading the PCI
Express Base Specification Revision 1.0a is that the initialization
sequence (link training) is far more complex than anything Conventional
PCI had (RST# gets asserted 100ms after the computer is switched on.
64-bit PCI adds REQ64# assertion during RST# assertion to signal 64-bit
environment.).
So, because the protocol is far more complex, even someone like myself who
has developed a Xilinx compatible PCI IP core does have hard time
understanding the entire PCI Express protocol, especially the
initialization sequence. (I guess that the part I am stuck right now.)
Setting up the verification environment seems a lot more challenging than
Conventional PCI due to the fact that the protocol is a lot more complex.
I have looked into the PCI Express checklist, and it seems much longer and
more detailed than Conventional PCI.
I must say that knowing Conventional PCI doesn't gets to too far with PCI
Express, perhaps, knowing how Ethernet works does.
Kevin Brace
|
where did you see my optimism? :)
I only stated that up-front 100,000 $ investment is not needed.
and then that the project is un-reasonable as of the man-years
required.
PCIe is WAY more complex as PCI. Way more.
it could still be done with one low cost PCIe board, and more
work, meaning making your own protocol monitor-analyzer sw, etc, etc.
Antti |
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m
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:15 am Post subject:
Re: Can somone work on the pci express project? |
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|
On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 08:55:17 GMT, Kevin Brace
<sa0les1@brac2ed3esi4gns5olut6ions.com> wrote:
| Quote: | From what I understand, PCI Express requires a bleeding-edge
oscilloscope which normally cost around $60,000, plus around $10,000 for
four FET probes.
|
I think some clarification is in order. This is only necessary if
you're developing a PCI-E PHY or physical layer interface. There is a
specification called PIPE (physical interface for pci express) which
defines a parallel clock, data recovered interface between a pci-e phy
and the higher levels of the system. The equivalent to your PCI IP
would be a block which sits above PIPE at which level you don't the
scope and the probes if you assume that the PIPE block works. |
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