| Author |
Message |
kingzog
Guest
|
 Posted:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:02 am Post subject:
Free advice to AMD |
|
|
Looking at this
http://www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/top.jsp
it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with lots of
CPUs. Both Itanium and Opteron seem to have been aimed at this, even
though Itanium is not x86, they both seem to be ways for AMD and Intel
to fill this gap.
In some ways, dual core chips are heading in the right direction, but
2xAthlon 64 class seems to me to not heading very far.
It seems to me that there might be a market for something like 8xK7
class on a chip with a modern bus to the outside world. In some ways
it's taking the Cell route of having a bunch of simpler cores, except
that these would just be older x86 designs. There some evidence that
individual core performance can be sacrificed in server applications to
get more cores on chip.
Building such a chip would shift the task away from engineering cores
to engineering the L2 cache on chip which would act as the connection
between the cores.
OS kernels could be profiled and tweaked for popular server
applications and benchmarks, like SPECint_rate2000. You could do this
on Linux, and try to get Microsoft to do the same for Windows. If
necessary, new instructions to speed up MP stuff could be added,
perhaps hints to the caching subsystem.
The downside to this is that it's definitely a server chip, it would be
weak at single CPU applications. On the other hand, it should be cheap
to develop, and it could allow AMD in particular to get entry into a
market with much higher margins. Companies like Sun have started to use
AMD chips, and this sort of chip is presumably good for the sort of
systems they want to produce. Maybe you could use it to persuade them
that they should move to x86 rather than IA-64.
Zog. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
del cecchi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:32 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
"kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109541734.646968.315870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Looking at this
http://www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/top.jsp
it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with lots of
CPUs. Both Itanium and Opteron seem to have been aimed at this, even
though Itanium is not x86, they both seem to be ways for AMD and Intel
to fill this gap.
In some ways, dual core chips are heading in the right direction, but
2xAthlon 64 class seems to me to not heading very far.
Damn, it's amazing no one thought of that. After all, customers don't |
care about single stream performance. That's why Sun's Niagra has taken
the industry by storm and Sun's stock is at all time highs. NOT.
duh.
del cecchi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wes Felter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
On 2005-02-27 16:02:14 -0600, "kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> said:
Don't Summit and Horus address this?
| Quote: | It seems to me that there might be a market for something like 8xK7
class on a chip with a modern bus to the outside world. In some ways
it's taking the Cell route of having a bunch of simpler cores, except
that these would just be older x86 designs. There some evidence that
individual core performance can be sacrificed in server applications to
get more cores on chip.
|
In other words, x86 Niagra. A server processor would need to be 64-bit
to address enough RAM, and a 64-bit version of the K7 would be.. the
K8. I don't see 8 of those fitting on a chip.
Besides, does AMD even have the resources to develop yet another core?
--
Wes Felter - wesley@felter.org - http://felter.org/wesley/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Niels Jørgen Kruse
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
del cecchi <dcecchi.nojunk@att.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109541734.646968.315870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Looking at this
http://www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/top.jsp
it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with lots of
CPUs. Both Itanium and Opteron seem to have been aimed at this, even
though Itanium is not x86, they both seem to be ways for AMD and Intel
to fill this gap.
In some ways, dual core chips are heading in the right direction, but
2xAthlon 64 class seems to me to not heading very far.
Damn, it's amazing no one thought of that. After all, customers don't
care about single stream performance. That's why Sun's Niagra has taken
the industry by storm and Sun's stock is at all time highs. NOT.
|
Niagara is not out yet, so it is a bit early to demand repercussions.
Lets see what it can do. (And what software license costs will be.)
--
Mvh./Regards, Niels Jørgen Kruse, Vanløse, Denmark |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joe Seigh
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:43:57 GMT, Wes Felter <wesley@felter.org> wrote:
| Quote: | In other words, x86 Niagra. A server processor would need to be 64-bit
to address enough RAM, and a 64-bit version of the K7 would be.. the
K8. I don't see 8 of those fitting on a chip.
Besides, does AMD even have the resources to develop yet another core?
Does Sun have the resources and vision to exploit Niagra? I'm not too |
sure. So no compelling example for the others to follow. If they
were so inclined, you'd be seeing 4 way hyperthreading from Intel
rather than a 2 way w/ 2 hyperthreads each.
--
Joe Seigh |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kingzog
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:51 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
Wes Felter wrote:
| Quote: | On 2005-02-27 16:02:14 -0600, "kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> said:
In other words, x86 Niagra.
|
Umm, yeah. Pretty much.
| Quote: | A server processor would need to be 64-bit to address enough RAM, and
a 64-bit version of the K7 would be.. the K8. I don't see 8 of
those fitting on a chip.
From what I read going from x86 to x86-64 has a fairly low cost in
terms of die size, it could be retrofitted to an earlier chip. Or you |
could strip most of the the cached off a K8. You could probably shrink
the K8 a bit in other places too - branch taget buffer and the like.
| Quote: |
Besides, does AMD even have the resources to develop yet another
core?
|
It's not as bad as developing a new core, more like hacking one of the
ones you already have.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
del cecchi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:17 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
"kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109623876.157264.203990@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Wes Felter wrote:
On 2005-02-27 16:02:14 -0600, "kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> said:
In other words, x86 Niagra.
Umm, yeah. Pretty much.
A server processor would need to be 64-bit to address enough RAM,
and
a 64-bit version of the K7 would be.. the K8. I don't see 8 of
those fitting on a chip.
From what I read going from x86 to x86-64 has a fairly low cost in
terms of die size, it could be retrofitted to an earlier chip. Or you
could strip most of the the cached off a K8. You could probably shrink
the K8 a bit in other places too - branch taget buffer and the like.
Besides, does AMD even have the resources to develop yet another
core?
It's not as bad as developing a new core, more like hacking one of the
ones you already have.
Hey doughhead, you ever developed a core? Or a chip of any kind? |
> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
"it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with lots of
CPUs."
Warning--tounge in cheek mode=on
It seems to me that x86 manufactures need to allow the other
architectures room to escape the onslaught of the killer x86s. That is
they escape to the big processor count multiprocessors, while the x86
manufactures clean up in the low end where all the volume is. This
leave them with just enough cash flow to continue developing high
processor count multis and prevents them from entering the x86 design
and manufacturing realm and actually competing!
A clever strategy if I do say so myself!
ticm=off
Mitch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sander Vesik
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:37 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
del cecchi <dcecchi.nojunk@att.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Damn, it's amazing no one thought of that. After all, customers don't
care about single stream performance. That's why Sun's Niagra has taken
the industry by storm and Sun's stock is at all time highs. NOT.
duh.
|
It would be prety amazing if Niagra managed to do that way before being
available. Not even Itanic really managed that.
--
Sander
+++ Out of cheese error +++ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sander Vesik
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
Niels J?rgen Kruse <nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | del cecchi <dcecchi.nojunk@att.net> wrote:
"kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109541734.646968.315870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Looking at this
http://www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/top.jsp
it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with lots of
CPUs. Both Itanium and Opteron seem to have been aimed at this, even
though Itanium is not x86, they both seem to be ways for AMD and Intel
to fill this gap.
In some ways, dual core chips are heading in the right direction, but
2xAthlon 64 class seems to me to not heading very far.
Damn, it's amazing no one thought of that. After all, customers don't
care about single stream performance. That's why Sun's Niagra has taken
the industry by storm and Sun's stock is at all time highs. NOT.
Niagara is not out yet, so it is a bit early to demand repercussions.
Lets see what it can do. (And what software license costs will be.)
|
A lot of the obvious software to run on it doesn't have per-cpu licences
or comes from companies (which AFAIK includes Sun) that treat all multi-core
CPU-s as one CPU for the licence purposes. You probably wouldn't run
Oracle on it.
--
Sander
+++ Out of cheese error +++ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
del cecchi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:03 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
"Sander Vesik" <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote in message
news:1109724606.325805@haldjas.folklore.ee...
| Quote: | Niels J?rgen Kruse <nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk> wrote:
del cecchi <dcecchi.nojunk@att.net> wrote:
"kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109541734.646968.315870@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Looking at this
http://www.aceshardware.com/SPECmine/top.jsp
it's clear that there's a big gap in x86 systems - ones with
lots of
CPUs. Both Itanium and Opteron seem to have been aimed at this,
even
though Itanium is not x86, they both seem to be ways for AMD and
Intel
to fill this gap.
In some ways, dual core chips are heading in the right
direction, but
2xAthlon 64 class seems to me to not heading very far.
Damn, it's amazing no one thought of that. After all, customers
don't
care about single stream performance. That's why Sun's Niagra has
taken
the industry by storm and Sun's stock is at all time highs. NOT.
Niagara is not out yet, so it is a bit early to demand
repercussions.
Lets see what it can do. (And what software license costs will be.)
A lot of the obvious software to run on it doesn't have per-cpu
licences
or comes from companies (which AFAIK includes Sun) that treat all
multi-core
CPU-s as one CPU for the licence purposes. You probably wouldn't run
Oracle on it.
--
Sander
Since the proposal is x86-64, what's the Microsoft windows policy? |
del cecchi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Todd
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:18 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD (worth every penny) |
|
|
del cecchi wrote:
....
| Quote: | Since the proposal is x86-64, what's the Microsoft windows policy?
|
Last I heard, I think they (unlike Oracle) plan to count chips, not cores.
- bill |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kingzog
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:00 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
del cecchi wrote:
| Quote: | Hey doughhead, you ever developed a core? Or a chip of any kind?
|
You should try to dilute the insults with at least some
facts/anecdotes/content e.g.
"My CPU design company tried to 'hack' [some CPU] with [some really
minor change] and it took as much time as a new design. I bet you've
never even set foot in a computer company and I'VE RUN THE WHOLE
COMPANY FOR 60 YEARS!!!11!!, doughboy"
or
"Hey Doughboy, your suggestion won't work because [other illuminating
anecdote about extreme engineering hardship from your 70+ years
experience in being a Senior Expert CPU Designer at IBM]. You
youngsters make me sick, when I was as inexperienced as you I wasn't
allowed to SPEAK, let alone POST IN comp.arch"
But keep the doughboys and the generally superior attitude. I have this
mental picture of you railing against the general dumbing down of the
world, which is kind of funny.
Doughboy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
del cecchi
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:55 am Post subject:
Re: Free advice to AMD |
|
|
"kingzog" <kingzog_1@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1109728820.724951.187830@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | del cecchi wrote:
Hey doughhead, you ever developed a core? Or a chip of any kind?
You should try to dilute the insults with at least some
facts/anecdotes/content e.g.
"My CPU design company tried to 'hack' [some CPU] with [some really
minor change] and it took as much time as a new design. I bet you've
never even set foot in a computer company and I'VE RUN THE WHOLE
COMPANY FOR 60 YEARS!!!11!!, doughboy"
or
"Hey Doughboy, your suggestion won't work because [other illuminating
anecdote about extreme engineering hardship from your 70+ years
experience in being a Senior Expert CPU Designer at IBM]. You
youngsters make me sick, when I was as inexperienced as you I wasn't
allowed to SPEAK, let alone POST IN comp.arch"
But keep the doughboys and the generally superior attitude. I have
this
mental picture of you railing against the general dumbing down of the
world, which is kind of funny.
Doughboy.
|
Yeah, well it's folks like you that can't read and come in spouting off
that make it plausible.
That was "dough head". I believe the proper action now is "plonk"
del |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anton Ertl
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:21 pm Post subject:
Software licensing for Niagra (was: Free advice to AMD ...) |
|
|
Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> writes:
| Quote: | A lot of the obvious software to run on it doesn't have per-cpu licences
or comes from companies (which AFAIK includes Sun) that treat all multi-core
CPU-s as one CPU for the licence purposes. You probably wouldn't run
Oracle on it.
|
Why not? Supposedly it is database software like Oracle that runs on
a Niagra core almost as well as on more powerful CPUs, because this
software is supposedly always waiting for memory anyway. If that is
the case, why would Oracle not count cores or hardware threads when
determining the power of the system?
Ok, a limiting factor for such a memory-limited application will be
the power of the memory subsystem, so maybe Oracle should license per
memory channel or somesuch:-)
BTW, is anything known about the memory controller of the Niagra yet?
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in