| Author |
Message |
Calvin Chan
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:41 am Post subject:
standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Hi Folks
I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
into the device to reprogram via ISP.
Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
to relevant links? Thanks
Rgds
Calvin Chan
calvin_wp_chan@yahoo.co.uk |
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Marlowe
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:53 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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PIC chips are relatively cheap, so why not program a bunch of chips at your
shop and then the service rep would go and swap out the chip at he customers
site. ZIF sockets would be a good idea. Then the rep returns the old chips
back to the shop for another round of updating. Pretty straight forward.
"Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote in message
news:jcs1s052kikpahm8oo0tird5kqurhvklm9@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Hi Folks
I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
into the device to reprogram via ISP.
Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
to relevant links? Thanks
Rgds
Calvin Chan
calvin_wp_chan@yahoo.co.uk |
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CBFalconer
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:18 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Marlowe wrote:
| Quote: |
PIC chips are relatively cheap, so why not program a bunch of chips
at your shop and then the service rep would go and swap out the
chip at he customers site. ZIF sockets would be a good idea. Then
the rep returns the old chips back to the shop for another round of
updating. Pretty straight forward.
|
Please don't toppost. ZIF sockets cost much more than PIC chips.
--
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address! |
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Calvin Chan
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:32 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Our product is not to use dip package but soic and ssop package solder
onboard, so the only possible easy way is the ISP method.
Rgds
Calvin
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 06:18:33 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Marlowe wrote:
PIC chips are relatively cheap, so why not program a bunch of chips
at your shop and then the service rep would go and swap out the
chip at he customers site. ZIF sockets would be a good idea. Then
the rep returns the old chips back to the shop for another round of
updating. Pretty straight forward.
Please don't toppost. ZIF sockets cost much more than PIC chips. |
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Leon Heller
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:34 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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"Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote in message
news:jcs1s052kikpahm8oo0tird5kqurhvklm9@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Hi Folks
I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
into the device to reprogram via ISP.
Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
to relevant links? Thanks
|
I don't think that such a device is available but it wouldn't be difficult
to design and make one. All it needs is a suitable MCU with an RS-232 port
for downloading the code, an ISP programming interface, a pushbutton, a
couple of LEDs and some software.
Leon |
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Calvin Chan
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Sure this is the way to do it, but of course if I can get one off
shelf, that save our development time to study the ISP protocol etc.
Failing that in getting one off shelf, then there comes the question
of whether there is sample C code for the ISP implementation.
Rgds
Calvin
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:34:57 -0000, "Leon Heller"
<leon_heller@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote in message
news:jcs1s052kikpahm8oo0tird5kqurhvklm9@4ax.com...
Hi Folks
I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
into the device to reprogram via ISP.
Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
to relevant links? Thanks
I don't think that such a device is available but it wouldn't be difficult
to design and make one. All it needs is a suitable MCU with an RS-232 port
for downloading the code, an ISP programming interface, a pushbutton, a
couple of LEDs and some software.
Leon
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Leon Heller
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:41 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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"Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote in message
news:fmn2s09aq261497thlr4pcd1022jhgsrqt@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Sure this is the way to do it, but of course if I can get one off
shelf, that save our development time to study the ISP protocol etc.
Failing that in getting one off shelf, then there comes the question
of whether there is sample C code for the ISP implementation.
|
The algorithms are available, implementing them in C or assembler would be
quite easy.
Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
http://www.kasamba.com/viewExpert.asp?conMemID=105725&Catid=1111&banID=2100 |
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mike
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Calvin Chan wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Folks
I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
into the device to reprogram via ISP.
Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
to relevant links? Thanks
Rgds
Calvin Chan
calvin_wp_chan@yahoo.co.uk
|
There should be application notes for this on the Microchip site.
The things I'd worry about are:
All the external stuff you have to have to support it...switches,
connectors, input protection etc. You don't want to zap the circuit
hooking up the programmer. In fact, you don't even want to open the
enclosure to upgrade the firmware.
You gotta have available pins or a way to use pins that are already
wired to something else.
What's the state of the processor during the programming? If
conflicting outputs get turned on simultaneously, you can make smoke.
For processors with a UART, I like the bootloader approach. You can
put a couple of optoisolators in a box and hang it on the serial port
of any laptop (that has a serial port). It's harder to kill an
optoisolated port.
I'd also worry about the security of your code. If it's really, really
secret...AND...it has high value...it WILL be compromised...
When you weigh the cost of a service call against the value of the code,
you might find that secrecy is VERY expensive.
As a test, give the
processor external specs to a high-school computer club and see how
long it takes them to generate code to duplicate the function.
Secrecy might be moot.
It's easy to underestimate the logistics of field programmability by
an order of magnitude or two. At Tektronix, I spent a bundle of money
implementing management mandated requirements that sounded good on
paper, but sent life-cycle costs thru the roof.
What do you have to do to support a critical update on 100 systems
spread all over the world? 1000 systems? Unless you have Santa Claus
on the payroll, it's a real problem with a manageable inventory of
programmers and personnel.
Field programmability
really shines when the customer can do it all by hisbadself without
opening the box. Take a lesson from computer motherboard, modem,
ethernet, and most everything else, BIOS updates.
mike
--
Return address is VALID.
Wanted, Slot 1 Motherboard
500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
http://nm7u.tripod.com/homepage/te.html
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/ |
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Byron A Jeff
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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|
In article <jcs1s052kikpahm8oo0tird5kqurhvklm9@4ax.com>,
Calvin Chan <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote:
-Hi Folks
-
-I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
-for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
-
-The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
-(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
-binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
-and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
-into the device to reprogram via ISP.
-
-Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
-to relevant links? Thanks
If you have the right part, you can simply implement a bootloader with
a secure protocol. It just requires a PIC that can program itself. These
include the 16F88 in the 18 pin package, the 16F876A and 16F877A in the
28 and 40 pin package, or any of the 18F parts.
Then you wouldn't need a standalone programmer at all. Just plug a serial
port into the chip, and run the right piece of software, and you're done.
BAJ |
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Mark A. Odell
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Calvin Chan <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote in
news:mce2s09b67cb02uprvclu4r8mi36l9sokj@4ax.com:
| Quote: | PIC chips are relatively cheap, so why not program a bunch of chips
at your shop and then the service rep would go and swap out the
chip at he customers site. ZIF sockets would be a good idea. Then
the rep returns the old chips back to the shop for another round of
updating. Pretty straight forward.
Please don't toppost. ZIF sockets cost much more than PIC chips.
Our product is not to use dip package but soic and ssop package solder
onboard, so the only possible easy way is the ISP method.
|
Please, no top posting. Ensure your design conforms to the ICD-2
in-circuit programming requirements. The ICD-2 is made by Microchip.
--
- Mark ->
-- |
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Calvin Chan
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Of course, I admitted that this is not a complete secure solution, but
it would be far better than bringing the .hex or .bin file around that
people can merely copy the file from the unattended machine, if the
service engineer let the machine unattended. We tend to make thing
difficult rather than impossible.
This is one aspect that I am after the handheld programmer. The other,
is of course, as mentioned, is the odd position to reprogram.
Calvin
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:00:40 GMT, "Nicholas O. Lindan" <see@sig.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote
That means the service engineer onsite owns a copy of hex code which
we do not really want.
There is _no difference_ between 'hex code' and 'binary code'. It's all
1's and 0's.
If the service man has the equipment to reprogram the system then
he _has_ the hex/binary/octal/trinary machine code. A few minutes with a logic
analyzer and out she comes, all pretty printed and formatted.
I would re-examine the idea of secrecy.
As Mike pointed out you may be spending far more on security than it
would cost the competition to hire a few students to clone your product.
Unless, of course, your product is holding cipher data. But if this is to be
a truly _secure_ product I think you have already 'screwed the pooch' by
allowing
unsupervised access to the hardware.
I agree with Mike and suggest you let the customer download updates
from the net as needed and forget about it. You'll save a fortune on
Tylenol and Tums. |
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Nicholas O. Lindan
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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"Calvin Chan" <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote
| Quote: | That means the service engineer onsite owns a copy of hex code which
we do not really want.
|
There is _no difference_ between 'hex code' and 'binary code'. It's all
1's and 0's.
If the service man has the equipment to reprogram the system then
he _has_ the hex/binary/octal/trinary machine code. A few minutes with a logic
analyzer and out she comes, all pretty printed and formatted.
I would re-examine the idea of secrecy.
As Mike pointed out you may be spending far more on security than it
would cost the competition to hire a few students to clone your product.
Unless, of course, your product is holding cipher data. But if this is to be
a truly _secure_ product I think you have already 'screwed the pooch' by
allowing
unsupervised access to the hardware.
I agree with Mike and suggest you let the customer download updates
from the net as needed and forget about it. You'll save a fortune on
Tylenol and Tums.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/ |
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Calvin Chan
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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Byron
That means the service engineer onsite owns a copy of hex code which
we do not really want. Also, the device is installed in odd area that
bring a laptop and climb up long ladder is not a very nice way to do.
Battery driven uploader is the ultimate goal.
Rgds
Calvin
On 16 Dec 2004 12:26:58 -0500, byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <jcs1s052kikpahm8oo0tird5kqurhvklm9@4ax.com>,
Calvin Chan <calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote:
-Hi Folks
-
-I have been looking into some sorts of portable standalone programmers
-for PIC. The idea is for on site firmware update.
-
-The idea is to preload the programmer with the firmware hex code
-(presumably the programmer is equipped with flash/eeprom to house the
-binary code. For security reason, the hex code is not distributed),
-and the service engineer will take the programmer to site, and plug
-into the device to reprogram via ISP.
-
-Does anyone come across this type of device, or can anyone points me
-to relevant links? Thanks
If you have the right part, you can simply implement a bootloader with
a secure protocol. It just requires a PIC that can program itself. These
include the 16F88 in the 18 pin package, the 16F876A and 16F877A in the
28 and 40 pin package, or any of the 18F parts.
Then you wouldn't need a standalone programmer at all. Just plug a serial
port into the chip, and run the right piece of software, and you're done.
BAJ |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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|
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:26:40 +0800, the renowned Calvin Chan
<calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Byron
That means the service engineer onsite owns a copy of hex code which
we do not really want. Also, the device is installed in odd area that
bring a laptop and climb up long ladder is not a very nice way to do.
Battery driven uploader is the ultimate goal.
Rgds
|
He means that the file is encrypted and the bootloader program inside
the PIC decrypts it before writing it to flash.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Calvin Chan
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: standalone programmer for PIC? |
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|
Thanks for the clarification, but that cannot solve the odd position
of installation of device which warrants to handheld programmer.
Calvin
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:43:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:26:40 +0800, the renowned Calvin Chan
calvin_chan@post1.com> wrote:
Byron
That means the service engineer onsite owns a copy of hex code which
we do not really want. Also, the device is installed in odd area that
bring a laptop and climb up long ladder is not a very nice way to do.
Battery driven uploader is the ultimate goal.
Rgds
He means that the file is encrypted and the bootloader program inside
the PIC decrypts it before writing it to flash.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany |
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