CASTalk.com

Xenon · Guest

kinda on the techie side. PS3 seems to be making steady progress... and btw
this is just a rough translation from Japanese:

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/1220/kaigai142.htm

- The media processor of PS3 it produces with 65nm process

Hisashi ? it is good the wooden health person (SONY computer entertainment
president and group CEO
First, it is necessary to presume whether production process of the PS3
media processor of NVIDIA how becomes.

A certain authorized personnel, calls the media processor of PS3 that it
mass-produces with 65nm. Also the Cell processor which is the main CPU of
PS3, at the time of PS3 appearance is presumed that it has become 65nm
process. When we assume, that is, also 2 tips/chips mean to use leading
process technology. When we assume that Microsoft Xbox2 (Xenon) uses 90nm
process in the tip/chip, it means that process technology PS3 advances 1
generation.

This is the advantage of PS3 and, it is risk. Though, because new
architecture suddenly trial manufacture -> those where it carries to mass
production are the lith key with 65nm, Cell in the same way the media
processor and first the possibility of starting trial manufacture with 90nm
process are high.

According to release, production of the PS3 media processor, Fab2 and
Toshiba and SONY of the SONY group being joint, has meant the tea which is
managed s semi-conductor (OTSS) with to be done considerably. Fab2 90nm (2F)
does mass production, 65nm (1F) has started. OTSS has prepared also 65nm
with the 300mm wafer, at the time of real mass production, as for SCEI
production the switch is possible with two Fab whose compatibility of
process technology is high.

IBM, Embedded DRAM (eDRAM) it is included in the joint ownership process
technology of Toshiba and SCEI. There is no sign to which at present, eDRAM
has been recorded before the Cell processor. So, the media processor how
being?

When of the character, memory zone most important GPU is thought, as for the
media processor the possibility of placing eDRAM is high. In the first
place, memory zone is guaranteed with eDRAM, the fact that performance is
made is the proud pattern of SCEI. Also the patent application which is seen
as the Cell processor of SCEI was visible, as designated eDRAM as
prerequisite.

Though, there is also a hurdle in the adoption of eDRAM. As for that eDRAM
and SOI (silicon-on-insulater) with coexistence of technology, as for these
2 technologies it is said that coexistence is difficult. 3 corporations have
tackled also the engineering development which actualizes eDRAM on SOI, many
dissertation has been issued, but there is an attitude which can really be
mass-produced, you do not know whether or not is.

Because of that, to tell the truth as for the Cell processor and the PS3
media processor production process technology differs. According to
information muscle, the Cell processor uses the SOI technology of 65nm, but
as for the media processor you say that it is the bulk CMOS of 65nm.
Although it is the expectation of the same Fab, that if the media processor
is the bulk it presumes, that is, in order to use eDRAM which still is the
hurdle in the coexistence with SOI coherence is agreeable.

- As for game machine the combination of eDRAM and high-speed external DRAM
in main current?

If we assume that the PS3 media processor, uses eDRAM, video memory, is
presumed that it becomes the combination of eDRAM and external DRAM. EDRAM
can actualize very wide band, but capacity is limited. As for external DRAM
as for zone it is limited than eDRAM vis-a-vis that but you maintain
capacity largely. In case of 3D graphics, because necessary zone differs
rather depending upon the data, it is presumed that segregation is possible.

For example, for GAMECUBE of ATI also system tip/chip "Flipper", mass memory
of built-in (1T-SRAM of 3MB) with has combined external DRAM. As for 1T-SRAM
of Flipper, as for memory cell itself eDRAM (0.18 ? m embedded DRAM process
of the NEC electronics) is, but interface is high-speed memory of SRAM type.
With Flipper, as a general rule the memory of this 3MB is allotted to the
frame buffer and the Z buffer, and texture cash.

It is said that in funny thing, it becomes the memory constitution which and
eDRAM and external DRAM combines also tip/chip for Xbox2 where ATI develops
the core. If information and presumption of this are correct, for the game
machine the memory of GPU means that eDRAM of built-in and combination of
external DRAM become main current. As for that, for the game machine as for
GPU, it means also the fact that it is restricted to the world where the
Japanese semiconductor manufacturer whose eDRAM is proud directs.

Actually, when we assume that eDRAM of bulk is loaded, the foundry of Xbox2
(foundry), the Japanese semiconductor manufacturer which has high-level
eDRAM technology becomes most major candidate. With Flipper, as for Nintendo
Co. you used NEC as the foundry partner. Because as for this, the NEC
electronics has the process of logic &eDRAM of high performance. When of
such details are thought, the tip/chip of Xbox2 which the same ATI develops,
the possibility the area of NEC which takes charge of the production of
Flipper producing is high. By the way, it is presumed that from the next
generation GPU of ATI "R520" 90nm process, architecture for Xbox2 of the
same generation also the tip/chip is 90nm process. NEC has offered 90nm
process "UX6" already.

- If 65nm process constitution of 24 pipes or more possibly

So, when we assume, that the PS3 media processor, is mass production with
65nm, it probably can insert how many functions? Graphics Synthesizer of PS2
(GS), the first announcement time they were 279 squares mm at 0.25 ? m, but
it shrank to period relatively shortly. This time, when you think of that it
is restricted to 65nm for a while, the possibility the die/di becoming small
is somewhat higher than the first generation GS. Though, because wafer size
from 200mm increases to 300mm, that much, is increase of the die/di
withstands, (it meaning that cost per wafer goes down). So, when you think,
perhaps with 65nm 200 square mm questions the proper hitting.

In case of NVIDIA, with the 130nm process of IBM, the die/di of
approximately 300 squares mm 2 hundred million 2,200 ten thousand
transistors are placed in NV40 (the semiconductor itself), the 32bit
precision 16 pixel pipe is formed. When it becomes 65nm, 2 generations being
the case that it is refined from 130nm, if, at the time of 65nm the die/di
of 200 squares mm, in regard to calculation if 6 100010000 transistor
weaknesses, 300 squares mm it means to be able to load above approximately 8
hundred million transistors as logic &SRAM (some the possibility of
decreasing is higher than this in actuality). Assuming, if it cut the half
of the die/di in eDRAM, in regard to calculation pipe constitution of 1.5
times or more (24 - 32 pipes) it means to be able to take. Actually as for
the pipe of raster operation being so, it is overkill, but constitution of
the Shader side which is operational unit is a possibility of 24 - 32 pipes.

You must add to calculation in other things, as for, for PC GPU is unit of
the around interface which differs. It is seen that it is integrated in the
PS3 media processor, interface of interface "Redwood" between the tip/chip
and XDR DRAM because the circuit and the like of timing adjustment in order
to absorb the skew is had, is takes the die/di. In addition, if we assume
if, it integrates also the interface around the southern bridge tip/chip,
(the possibility of becoming another tip/chip it is high), it is necessary
also for that area to add. But, like PCI Express x16 if there is no
large-scale serial interface which needs the enormous area, it does not
influence probably will be that much largely.

- When it calculates backward from the development cycle of NVIDIA

Process technology, estimating in the adult closing, when we assume that
pipe constitution of 24 or more takes, as for NVIDIA it probably will make
what kind of GPU core.

In order to presume that, it is necessary for NVIDIA to be able to do how
many development periods and to cut the resource in the PS3 media processor
and to know high.

First, development period with the schedule which never is room is
improbable. As for the development cycle of GPU of NVIDIA approximately 18 -
22 months. When it is typical pattern, starting from product specification
decision, it becomes as follows.

After the specification decisive approximately 3 - 4 months of micro
architecture
RTL (Register Transfer Level) after the completion approximately 6 - 8
months of formation
Tape out approximately 10 - 18 after the months
After the start approximately 18 - 22 months of mass production

Because as for those where it has the gap, NVIDIA in the past has reached
the point where it starts to be somewhat longer than the cycle which has
been explained, recently. For example, because NV40 has started development
from 2002 first half, nearly approximately 2 years it means to be required.
In other words, if new architecture GPU, the schedule which was seen long is
more accurate.

When even then, you compare with CPU of cycle of 4 years or more, extremely
it is speedy, but when you compare with the chip set which is designed in 12
months it is rather long. When this is fitted in PS3, how becoming? As for
NVIDIA the cooperative relationship with SCEI said 2 years, but a certain
authorized personnel, says that even at that time there was complication.

Actually, when we assumed that, modification of the specification of XDR
DRAM which is loaded onto PS3, according to the imagination is influence of
the design of the media processor of NVIDIA, those where architecture of the
around memory of the media processor became firm mean between to 2004 July
from 2003 July. Whether it has the interface of DRAM memory of external
directly, or does not have, the high level design of the media processor
receives considerable influence. So when you think, after specification of
media processor becoming firm, being long, only 1 year half it means not to
be passed. If we assume that is, it means the level whether or not finally
tape out it does.

- The possibility of pouring the development resource into PS3

However, at the time of 2004 May E3, when the sample tip/chip of the media
processor already has operated, it conveyed a certain information source.
When we assume, if that much to be quick the tip/chip did, the PS3 media
processor, unless there is diversion from considerable, the existing design,
means difficult thing.

But, there is also an evidence which is contrary to this. First, as for
NVIDIA you say that are SCEI and cooperative relationship, but never
cooperating, development "it did," that the tip/chip past in shape you do
not say. From this, as for the PS3 media processor of the version which at
least is loaded onto PS3, the possibility of not having completed yet is
high. Substituting with the architecture close tip/chip, perhaps with
present condition, it has tested.

Looking at the road map of NVIDIA, the possibility the PS3 media processor,
without being the remodelling edition of existing, GPU being new
architecture is high. Because it is clear for the same company to have cut
the big development resource in the PS3 media processor.

NVIDIA with typical pattern throws 1 time new architecture GPU to 1, after
that half year, throws revised edition architecture. If you refer to
previous life generation, GeForce FX 5800 (NV30) with new architecture,
GeForce FX 5900 (NV35) it becomes revised edition architecture. Actually,
with NV35, inserting the hand inside the pipeline rather, it made NVIDIA and
changed.

However, as for 2004 new architecture GeForce 6800 (NV40) although it
appeared, the revised edition (NV47) throwing, somehow is improbable.
Furthermore, as for ATI Technologies to throwing R520 of the next generation
to 2005 first half, as for the counter product of NVIDIA there is no same
timing. In other words, the development cycle of NVIDIA is the case that at
least half year or more it has been delayed.

This has shown the fact that it has cut the development resource whose
NVIDIA is enormous in the PS3 media processor. When you see just this, the
PS3 tip/chip as former new architecture GPU means that the possibility of
becoming, big architecture reformation of the same level is high. If we
assume that is, as for NVIDIA the resource which develops GPU of 1
generation the next being packed, there is also a possibility of aiming for
radical architecture reform.

(2004 December 20th)

Mike B · Guest

nice tech talk, but it comes down to how games are going to look side by
side on an actual screen, and that's a while into the future. how about the
incredible Emotion engine?? it was nice talk, but we all know who is the
weakest of the bunch in the current generation... and by a fair margine.

sounds like the same ol' story to me. all the marketing talk from sony and
their proprietary formats and unique hardware implementations, and then MS
just goes and pulls parts off the shelf and whips its ass lol.

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"Mike B" <sonofzeus26@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PMudnZe_QuAeJ1rcRVn-gA@comcast.com...

Keith Schiffner · Guest

"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in
message news:qNCdnfLlXLsQpFXcRVn-2g@comcast.com...

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"Keith Schiffner" <schistan@3rivers.net> wrote in message
news:OJ-dnRftd4d8p1XcRVn-pA@vnet-inc.com...

Raph · Guest

"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_t-dna16dtMXoVXcRVn-hQ@comcast.com...

Fred Liken · Guest

"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qNCdnfLlXLsQpFXcRVn-2g@comcast.com...

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"Fred Liken" <fredliken@toocool4school.com> wrote in message
news:41c88137$0$96204$45beb828@newscene.com...

Raph · Guest

"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:EIydnTMmqs6tG1XcRVn-ug@comcast.com...

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"Raph" <raphs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xX0yd.82825$AL5.22571@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

Xbot · Guest

"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:a9-dnSQpV5tGA1XcRVn-hA@comcast.com...

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"Xbot" <lott@bull.com> wrote in message
news:kMydnQbDxsMQPFXcRVn-tw@giganews.com...

Mike B · Guest

--
www.geocities.com/mtb2k -Personal Site
"Mattinglyfan" <Estoscacahuates@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qNCdnfLlXLsQpFXcRVn-2g@comcast.com...

mike · Guest

Mattingly said: This Public Service Message brought to you by Atheists
Hate Hyprocrisy,
Frag Usenet (AHH, FU for short.)

........wouldn't being an Atheist be hypocritical in it's own right, seeing
how you must first admit the possibility of god's existence to ultimately
deny it. So, on top of being hypocritical yourself, that would also make you
appear indecisive as well, not a very good combination for a cerebral
wannabe.
also, people that let themselves descend into using derogatory remarks
about their conversational adversary only end up showing their ignorance and
betraying the strength of their argument. in other words, if you're going to
call a guy names because he disagrees with you, that demonstrates to the
people reading that you're unsure of your position and need inflammatory
comments to draw attention away from your response....because it obviously
contains flaws:

Mattingly said: Romance
languages like Spanish (forever) and now Italian do not use the "ph" to make
an f sound,

that would be wrong, not entirely, but if you're wrong just a
little...doesn't really make a difference in the end does it? i'm not going
to tell you how you're wrong, i'm just going to sit back and enjoy the fact
that you are.

p.s. regardless of your response, if one even comes, i won't reply. not
worth the time.
this was.

Mattinglyfan · Guest

"mike" <mall69@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:OBOU7P$5EHA.3644@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

PS3 media-graphics processor on 65nm process Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

	CASTalk.com Forum Index -> Computer Architecture	All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 1 of 3