| Author |
Message |
Richard Owlett
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject:
[ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
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I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language.
I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos".
I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' )
Found ONE interesting page
http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~u0013314/greekg/history.htm
I've sent it's Webmaster a request for more info.
But I was wondering if someone could provide interesting links and/or
suggestions on 'better' Google search terms.
A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google.
I *DID* say "WAY WAY OT" ;}
Thanks to all and Merry Christmas |
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Jerry Avins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Richard Owlett wrote:
| Quote: | I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language.
I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos".
I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' )
Found ONE interesting page
http://perswww.kuleuven.ac.be/~u0013314/greekg/history.htm
I've sent it's Webmaster a request for more info.
But I was wondering if someone could provide interesting links and/or
suggestions on 'better' Google search terms.
A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google.
I *DID* say "WAY WAY OT" ;}
Thanks to all and Merry Christmas
|
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
"Logos" is related to "legend". Its fundamental meaning grows out of the
meaning "gather"; one picks legumes. An intelligent being selects (the
'leg' part) between (the 'inte[r] part) things; "discriminating" is a
synonym. The meaning expands to include other kinds of reckoning
including counting, and other kinds of collecting including reading. A
log is a book in which events are recorded as words. In modern English,
"logo" derives its meaning from "logotype", a single piece of type with
an entire word (and/or a picture) on it, usually a trademark. "In the
beginning was the word" could as well have been translated, "In the
beginning was the reckoning."
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Randy Yates
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:06 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
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Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
| Quote: | [...]
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
|
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
--
% Randy Yates % "So now it's getting late,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % and those who hesitate
%%% 919-577-9882 % got no one..."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % 'Waterfall', *Face The Music*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr |
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Jerry Avins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:22 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
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|
Randy Yates wrote:
| Quote: | Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
[...]
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
|
Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that? Ought I to have written,
"(I know that 'In the beginning was the word' is from John 1:1, SO THIS
DOESN'T APPLY DIRECTLY TO YOUR INTEREST IN KOINE GREEK)"?
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Randy Yates
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:56 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
| Quote: | Randy Yates wrote:
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
[...]
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that?
|
At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone
asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even
respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent
in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense
that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context.
--
% Randy Yates % "With time with what you've learned,
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % they'll kiss the ground you walk
%%% 919-577-9882 % upon."
%%%% <yates@ieee.org> % '21st Century Man', *Time*, ELO
http://home.earthlink.net/~yatescr |
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Richard Dobson
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:39 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Richard Owlett wrote:
| Quote: | I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language.
I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos".
I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' )
Found ONE interesting page
....
A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google.
... |
Just enter "logos" and "nomos" into google (or you could pair "logos" with
"mythos", etc) and you should find lots of useful material. For example:
http://www.websteruniv.edu/~evansja/glossary.html
A useful general site for NT greek stuff is here:
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/
Richard Dobson |
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Richard Dobson
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:27 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Randy Yates wrote:
| Quote: |
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
|
This is proving an increasingly unsafe assumption. The native language of
Jesus's listeners was Aramaic (or one of its many dialects), and thus was the
language he used in his teaching, and even the assumption that the Gospel of
John was written in Greek is, in the light of the latest scholarship, subject to
the reservation that it is likely derived from earlier material in Syriac, an
aramaic dialect. The current aramaic versions (the Peshitta) of all the
canonical gospels are arguably much more authentic in both letter and spirit
than the Greek texts, which have the effect of imposing Greek notions of
Creation on communities (and a Teacher) who saw things very differently. The
Greek texts of the NT contain many examples of sometimes gross mis-translations,
which have been further compounded in translation into English (i.e. the KJV) by
scholars who were well-schooled in classical Greek and Latin but who know
nothing of the original languages.
One classic example of mis-translation is in the saying "it is easier for a
camel to pass through the eye of a needle...". The word translated as "camel"
really signified "camel-hair rope", so that "rope" would be a much more correct
translation, making the analogy reasonable and vivid (and rather more
meaningful), and humerous rather than surreal!
Richard Dobson |
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Jerry Avins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:57 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Randy Yates wrote:
| Quote: | Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
Randy Yates wrote:
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
[...]
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that?
At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone
asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even
respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent
in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense
that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context.
|
Of course, you're right. My comment to Richard was to the effect that
exegesis is tricky at best, and dictionary translations can sometimes be
worse than unhelpful. I then set out the little that I know about the
ancient use of "logos", with some of the subsequent development that I
hoped might illuminate part of it. I hope it worked for him as I intended.
As for mistranslation, consider the passage in Isiah which in Hebrew
predicts that "a young woman shall conceive", but is translated in the
King James Version as "a virgin shall conceive". The error is
understandable. In ancient Greek as in modern German, "young woman"
(German junge Frau) means young woman, but "youngwoman" (German
Jungfrau) means virgin. In the Hebrew of the time, both vowels and
spaces between words were left to the reader's imagination.
Then there's that "camel through the eye of a needle" that has at least
two explanations that I know, one based on mistranslating "rope" for
"camel" (I'm told that the words are similar in modern Arabic) and the
other on lost context; the very narrow passage through the Jerusalem and
other city walls narrow (strait) enough to be left open after the main
gates were closed at night and known as "the needle's eye".
Finally, one must remember that if there was a historical Jesus (the
English translation of Jesus Christ is "Jesse the Anointed), he spoke
Hebrew ceremonially and Aramaic colloquially. Any contemporaneous
anecdotes or other record would have been written in Aramaic or Latin.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Jerry Avins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:57 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Richard Dobson wrote:
...
| Quote: | This is proving an increasingly unsafe assumption. The native language
of Jesus's listeners was Aramaic (or one of its many dialects), and thus
was the language he used in his teaching, and even the assumption that
the Gospel of John was written in Greek is, in the light of the latest
scholarship, subject to the reservation that it is likely derived from
earlier material in Syriac, an aramaic dialect. The current aramaic
versions (the Peshitta) of all the canonical gospels are arguably much
more authentic in both letter and spirit than the Greek texts, which
have the effect of imposing Greek notions of Creation on communities
(and a Teacher) who saw things very differently. The Greek texts of the
NT contain many examples of sometimes gross mis-translations, which have
been further compounded in translation into English (i.e. the KJV) by
scholars who were well-schooled in classical Greek and Latin but who
know nothing of the original languages.
One classic example of mis-translation is in the saying "it is easier
for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...". The word
translated as "camel" really signified "camel-hair rope", so that "rope"
would be a much more correct translation, making the analogy reasonable
and vivid (and rather more meaningful), and humerous rather than surreal!
|
Richard,
You seem to have the topic well in hand, and if more comment is needed,
I will leave that to you. Thank you for pitching in. That makes it
easier for me to bow out before I, an outsider, offend someone.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Richard Owlett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:18 pm Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Jerry Avins wrote:
| Quote: | Randy Yates wrote:
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
Randy Yates wrote:
Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> writes:
[...]
If you want the original idiomatic meaning of words in the Old Testament
(I know that "In the beginning was the word" is from John 1:1), you
would do well to start your exegesis with ancient Hebrew or in some
cases, Aramaic. A distressing number of mistranslations turn up between
the original words (most of which have well-agreed-upon translations)
and how they are represented in English.
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
Did anything I wrote appear to contradict that?
At the highest level of cognition in this message, yes. If someone
asks for a recipe on lasagne and you give them one on pizza, why even
respond? I see now the words you wrote had no contradiction inherent
in them, but I guess my mind filtered that out since it makes no sense
that you would begin talking about Hebrew and Aramaic in this context.
Of course, you're right. My comment to Richard was to the effect that
exegesis is tricky at best, ...
|
That was what got me wondering about the etymology of 'logos'. I came
across someone who claimed its origin was a word meaning "bridge" as
"communication bridge between persons". That was far from any I had ever
heard.
| Quote: | ... and dictionary translations can sometimes be worse than unhelpful.
|
YES. And you have to use the same "dictionary" as original speaker. My
favorite example is the 1611 King James Version says "Suffer the little
children ..." 'Suffer' had a quite different PRIMARY meaning in 1611
than in 2004 :)
| Quote: | I then set out the little that I know about the
ancient use of "logos", with some of the subsequent development that I
hoped might illuminate part of it. I hope it worked for him as I intended.
|
Yepp. It also gave me an idea of investigating where "logos" is used in
the Septuagint {A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from
the 3rd century B.C.} and what Hebrew/Aramaic word(s) it translates.
So that would lead to an interest for links to Hebrew as well as Greek
etymology.
| Quote: |
As for mistranslation, consider the passage in Isiah which in Hebrew
predicts that "a young woman shall conceive", but is translated in the
King James Version as "a virgin shall conceive". The error is
understandable. In ancient Greek as in modern German, "young woman"
(German junge Frau) means young woman, but "youngwoman" (German
Jungfrau) means virgin. In the Hebrew of the time, both vowels and
spaces between words were left to the reader's imagination.
Then there's that "camel through the eye of a needle" that has at least
two explanations that I know, one based on mistranslating "rope" for
"camel" (I'm told that the words are similar in modern Arabic) and the
other on lost context; the very narrow passage through the Jerusalem and
other city walls narrow (strait) enough to be left open after the main
gates were closed at night and known as "the needle's eye".
Finally, one must remember that if there was a historical Jesus (the
English translation of Jesus Christ is "Jesse the Anointed), he spoke
Hebrew ceremonially and Aramaic colloquially. Any contemporaneous
anecdotes or other record would have been written in Aramaic or Latin.
Jerry |
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Richard Owlett
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:32 pm Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Richard Dobson wrote:
| Quote: |
Richard Owlett wrote:
I've noticed that some here a fascinated with language.
I wish to investigate origin of Koine Greek word "logos".
I did Google search using 'etymology "koine greek"' ( without ' )
Found ONE interesting page
...
A side question -- are there sites which advise on how to Google.
..
Just enter "logos" and "nomos" into google (or you could pair "logos"
with "mythos", etc) and you should find lots of useful material. For
example:
http://www.websteruniv.edu/~evansja/glossary.html
A useful general site for NT greek stuff is here:
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/
Richard Dobson
|
I've bookmarked the links. |
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Eric Jacobsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:39 pm Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:27:51 GMT, Richard Dobson
<richarddobson@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Randy Yates wrote:
Aren't you confusing the new and old testaments? I thought the old testament
was written primarily in Hebrew, with some Aramaic. The new testament is in
Koine Greek.
This is proving an increasingly unsafe assumption. The native language of
Jesus's listeners was Aramaic (or one of its many dialects), and thus was the
language he used in his teaching, and even the assumption that the Gospel of
John was written in Greek is, in the light of the latest scholarship, subject to
the reservation that it is likely derived from earlier material in Syriac, an
aramaic dialect. The current aramaic versions (the Peshitta) of all the
canonical gospels are arguably much more authentic in both letter and spirit
than the Greek texts, which have the effect of imposing Greek notions of
Creation on communities (and a Teacher) who saw things very differently. The
Greek texts of the NT contain many examples of sometimes gross mis-translations,
which have been further compounded in translation into English (i.e. the KJV) by
scholars who were well-schooled in classical Greek and Latin but who know
nothing of the original languages.
One classic example of mis-translation is in the saying "it is easier for a
camel to pass through the eye of a needle...". The word translated as "camel"
really signified "camel-hair rope", so that "rope" would be a much more correct
translation, making the analogy reasonable and vivid (and rather more
meaningful), and humerous rather than surreal!
|
That's interesting. There's been so much post-analysis and allegory
connected to this that I find it pretty amusing to see this pop up.
One that pops to mind that I've seen is a supposed connection to the
walled cities where a small portal allowed laden camels to enter
slowly if they were on their knees. The lesson then being that a
camel on it's knees can enter through the eye of the needle (and
therefore the obvious extension to people). I always found this to
be a bit of a stretch, but I wish I had a dollar for everytime I hear
it.
The translation that you offer does make much more sense but erases
the utility of the stories that have been built around the more common
translation. I suspect that this sort of thing has happened far more
often than many would care to imagine.
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org |
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Jerry Avins
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:41 am Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
Eric Jacobsen wrote:
...
| Quote: | One that pops to mind that I've seen is a supposed connection to the
walled cities where a small portal allowed laden camels to enter
slowly if they were on their knees. ...
|
That's new to me altogether. The "Needle's Eye" known to exist at Hazor
was a passage through the wall in which a tall man could stand, but so
narrow that an adult would have to sidle. After the city gates were
locked at night, residents could still come and go one at a time. It
would have been easy for one or two guards to repel an army trying to
force its way in through it.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
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Eric Jacobsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject:
Re: [ WAY WAY OT ;] wish links to Koine Greek etymology |
|
|
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 16:41:46 -0500, Jerry Avins <jya@ieee.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Eric Jacobsen wrote:
...
One that pops to mind that I've seen is a supposed connection to the
walled cities where a small portal allowed laden camels to enter
slowly if they were on their knees. ...
That's new to me altogether. The "Needle's Eye" known to exist at Hazor
was a passage through the wall in which a tall man could stand, but so
narrow that an adult would have to sidle. After the city gates were
locked at night, residents could still come and go one at a time. It
would have been easy for one or two guards to repel an army trying to
force its way in through it.
Jerry
|
Yes, the utility of a small portal in a walled city for security
management is easy to see. It doesn't surprise me at all that these
sorts of facts get corrupted between reality and the pulpit.
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org |
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