| Author |
Message |
Denis Gleeson
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:55 pm Post subject:
Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers. |
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Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis |
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Rick Merrill
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:13 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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Denis Gleeson wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
|
Limit to 5ma (c.f. GFI)
Maybe you wanto have a finger worn device that delivers the
"tingle code" based on RFID? That could enable a blind
clerk to work at a store someday.
I suggest you look into PWM (pulse width modulation).
Prior electrocutaneous example: http://kaz.med.wisc.edu/research.htm |
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Mac
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, Denis Gleeson wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis
|
I don't know what regulations apply but it seems like this would be
exceptionally dangerous for people with electronic life-suppor
equipment implanted in their bodies. (I'm thinking of pacemakers here.)
Just something to keep in mind. Sorry I don't have any real information.
--Mac |
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Bob Masta
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:11 am Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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On 4 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis
Gleeson) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
|
To expand on what others have said, the main safety issue is
going to be keeping the current from passing through the
heart (for pacemakers of just those with sensitive hearts),
which basically means somehow guaranteeing that the
current path is all in one hand, never from one hand to
the other, or to an external ground, etc.
One practical problem you will quickly encounter is that
the voltage needed to produce a given current varies
quite widely, since the skin pads of the finger tips are
not very conductive when dry.
Best regards,
Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom
D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com |
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Rich Grise
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:45 am Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, Denis Gleeson wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
I've seen articles on a device with a little X-Y matrix of tiny little |
transducers, which when they're energized, the person can feel the
vibrating ones somewhat like Braille. The app has a little sensor array,
and they were using it to read ordinary text by feel.
Or, just Braille tags.
But don't ever do anything that intentionally gives people an electrical
shock, except under strictly controlled lab or medical conditions.
Or gags, like those lighters and books, but even they're illegal to sell
these days.
Good Luck!
Rich |
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dmm
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:21 am Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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On 4 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis Gleeson) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
|
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/isis/projects/brailleproject.html ?
| Quote: | So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis |
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steve
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:31 am Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis Gleeson) wrote in message news:<184c35f9.0412040855.6a4a25df@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis
|
An easier solution would be to use vibration, a small vibration motor
(the type used in pagers), for instance, attached to the item can give
the same tactile feeling (tingling) without the danger or headaches of
passing currents thru items (and people!). Whether its practical or
not depends on your specific application. |
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Lewin A.R.W. Edwards
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:15 am Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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| Quote: | So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
|
Very silly and exceedingly dangerous idea. No lawyer or insurance
company will touch you with a fifty-foot cattle prod.
Modulate the speed of a pager motor held in the hand. You can find
good examples of this kind of technology in the sex toy industry (and
I am not being facetious). See for instance
<http://www.babeland.com/page/TIB/PROD/vibrators-couples/DM215780>. If
the intended users of this appliance can tell the difference between
the various settings, then your intended users will be able to, also. |
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YD
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
|
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On 4 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis
Gleeson) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis
|
This may not be very practical. The sensitivity level (too little/too
much) is in a rather narrow range and varies greatly between persons.
What one may not feel another goes OUCH. As ohters have stated, use
some kind of vibrating transducer, piezo or micromotor.
- YD.
--
Remove HAT if replying by mail. |
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Jim Douglas
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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|
Check out the medical device called a "Tens" unit, it's send a small tingle.
"Denis Gleeson" <dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com> wrote in message
news:184c35f9.0412040855.6a4a25df@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Hello all
Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).
Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?
Any help or suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Denis |
|
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| Back to top |
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Roland Zitzke
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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|
"Denis Gleeson" <dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:184c35f9.0412040855.6a4a25df@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
|
Since the late 1970s there were devices available called Optacons.
http://www.nfbae.ca/publications/index.php?id=375
Unfortunatly this technology has disappeared from the market. It essencially
consists of a neadle array (20 x 5) where such trigger is stimmulated by
vibrating certain sets of these pins at a time.
This in fact allows detailed pattern recognition without the effect of
distress on the finger.
I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.
Applying electricity directly to the finger is imho not a good idea. Apart
from safety considerations and possible long-term electrolytic effects I
would assume that you'll lose sensitivity for this after a while.
Vibrating mechanics of some kind triggered by something like an AC current
would work but in order to provide useful information this requires a
complex mechanical setup - just like on the Optacon.
The most promissing approach that I ever considered is to create haptical
stimulation by electrostatic / magnetic fields similar to what you can
experience if you switch your old model color TV off and touch the tube
glass.
If one would switch such fields on and off quickly, shield the whole thing
by some polymer with a suitable electronegativity characteristic and then
put the finger right on this plastic it may be possible to trigger a certain
part of the finger for a short time and - as a result - produce a picture.
This is what the optacon does but the approach could result in a much less
gragil technology with higher resolution and lower costs.
/Roland |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Roland Zitzke
<FODVRUTMSTJC@spammotel.com> wrote (in <41b6f241$1_1@news.ecore.net>)
about 'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on
Wed, 8 Dec 2004:
| Quote: | the
approach could result in a much less gragil technology
|
That would be a very distinct advantage. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Robert Monsen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
|
|
Roland Zitzke wrote:
| Quote: | I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.
|
Roland, is this a device to help you see? I've read about these, but
never actually had any direct contact. Can you recognize different
faces? Or the fact that a face is in front of you?
--
Regards,
Robert Monsen
"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God. |
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Wieslaw Bicz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
|
|
Roland Zitzke wrote:
| Quote: | "Denis Gleeson" <dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:184c35f9.0412040855.6a4a25df@posting.google.com...
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
Since the late 1970s there were devices available called Optacons.
http://www.nfbae.ca/publications/index.php?id=375
Unfortunatly this technology has disappeared from the market. It essencially
consists of a neadle array (20 x 5) where such trigger is stimmulated by
vibrating certain sets of these pins at a time.
This in fact allows detailed pattern recognition without the effect of
distress on the finger.
I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.
Applying electricity directly to the finger is imho not a good idea. Apart
from safety considerations and possible long-term electrolytic effects I
would assume that you'll lose sensitivity for this after a while.
Vibrating mechanics of some kind triggered by something like an AC current
would work but in order to provide useful information this requires a
complex mechanical setup - just like on the Optacon.
The most promissing approach that I ever considered is to create haptical
stimulation by electrostatic / magnetic fields similar to what you can
experience if you switch your old model color TV off and touch the tube
glass.
If one would switch such fields on and off quickly, shield the whole thing
by some polymer with a suitable electronegativity characteristic and then
put the finger right on this plastic it may be possible to trigger a certain
part of the finger for a short time and - as a result - produce a picture.
This is what the optacon does but the approach could result in a much less
gragil technology with higher resolution and lower costs.
/Roland
After I have read this post, I have had the idea, that I would be able |
to propose a novel idea for this purpose, that may be very attractive,
because this allows to makes devices with even large surfaces, that can
produce even large pictures. This idea is based on may experience, and
this is the reason, whyI think, that this will work, but it requires
some money for the development. The device will not contain any moving
elements.
If somebody is interested in it, I would be able to do this development
and create a product. This can be surely patented.
Wieslaw Bicz
---------------========== OPTEL sp. z o.o. ===========---------------
------===== R&D: Ultrasonic Technology/Fingerprint Recognition ====------
ul. Otwarta 10a PL 50-212 Wroclaw Tel.:+48 71 3296854 Fax.:+48 71 3296852
--------==== mailto:W.Bicz@optel.pl -=- http://www.optel.pl ====------- |
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Roland Zitzke
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the finger |
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"Robert Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:eSHtd.628892$mD.13594@attbi_s02...
| Quote: | Roland Zitzke wrote:
I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.
Roland, is this a device to help you see? I've read about these, but never
actually had any direct contact. Can you recognize different faces? Or the
fact that a face is in front of you?
|
Yes, I use it because I am blind and it lets me recognize images when moving
a CCD camera over it.
As mentioned the represented image is quite small (20 x 5) and this is not
enough for recognizing complex structures like a face in the sence that I
could tell two faces apart.
Biometry is a science of it's own ;-)
With a device I suggested it could be a much larger image and that would
certainly enable "TV for the blind" to some degree.
/Roland |
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