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Michael Noone
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:48 pm Post subject:
Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
-Michael Noone |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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| Quote: | more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of
doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations,
multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on
AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
|
A small incremental step would probably be to the MSP430. Getting into
this platform is very inexpensive, about $50 total hardware investment
(look at the Olimex stuff sold by, for example, www.sparkfun.com).
If you are looking to make a big performance leap, consider a migration
to ARM. The cheapest route for you to take right now would probably be
to one of the Philips LPC21xx series parts. Again, inexpensive
development hardware is available, though it is slightly more costly
than MSP430. |
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Guy Macon
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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4-bit uCs, of course. As your embedded systems engineering skills
improve, you learn how to do more and more with less and less.
I hope this helps. :)
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/> |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:05 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Michael Noone wrote:
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with
Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a
bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of
doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations,
multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on
AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs
would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor?
Thanks!
-Michael Noone
|
Microchip dsPic, a 16 bit digital signal controller, has a nice mix of
DSP and microcontroller features, it has single cycle multiplication as
well as a divide instruction so its more then capable to handle
sophisticated math. Its the smallest fastest chip out there (6mm square
in one package).
ARM is another option, 32 bits, but has multiple cycle multiplies and
no divide instruction, I would consider it a "weak" DSP processor,
maybe its good enough for you. |
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WaldemarIII
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:54 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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I'd say, try this one... ;-)
http://www.cpu-museum.com/14500B_e.htm
A real challenge!!!
Waldemar
P.S. Guy, from the picture on your web site I gather that
you'proably know about this one, too...
"Guy Macon" <_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> schreef in bericht
news:10r988kn05pck22@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
4-bit uCs, of course. As your embedded systems engineering skills
improve, you learn how to do more and more with less and less.
I hope this helps. :)
--
Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com/
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Ulf Samuelsson
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:56 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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"Michael Noone" <mnoone.uiuc.edu@127.0.0.1> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns95B77802AA764mnooneuiucedu127001@63.240.76.16...
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs,
but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would
be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
-Michael Noone
|
You can get AVRs running at up to 40/48 MHz at 3 Volt if you look at the
"special" chips.
AT76C713 = 48 MHz. This is an 8515 with USB and 2 (very) advanced UARTs
in a 100 pin package. No datasheet on the web yet,
but the chip is in production.
FPSLIC AT40K10AL = 25 Mhz, Beginning of next year the AT40K10AX is usable
at 40 MHz.
The chip is available today, but the toolset needs to be upgraded with the
support for the chip, and this means Q1 next year.
If you care to look for ARM chips, then the AT91SAM7S32 ARM 7 based
controller will give a lot of bang for the buck.
IAR C compiler + devkit & JTAG ICE for less than $300.
--
Best Regards
Ulf at atmel dot com
These comments are intended to be my own opinion and they
may, or may not be shared by my employer, Atmel Sweden. |
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Jim Granville
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:00 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Michael Noone wrote:
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
-Michael Noone
|
Work backwards from the most complex requirement: ie figure out
how many MIPS you actually need, at what precision, and then
benchmark cores that seem likely.
If you need 32 bits, but want to stay Microcontroller-ish, then
the ARM cores are a logical choice. If their maths is still
not enough, then the DSP cores from TI / Analog Devices / Freescale
would be next. Some DSPs have native floating point ALUs, so things
like powers are very fast.
FPGAs are also contenders if you can benefit from distributed ALU's
-jg |
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Nicholas O. Lindan
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:01 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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"Michael Noone" <mnoone.uiuc.edu@127.0.0.1> wrote
| Quote: | AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) ... I'd like to find something with
multiplication, division, powers ... at the speed that I really need.
|
The real question is - how much speed do you really need?
Without knowing that any further discourse on this matter
is somewhat pointless.
--
Nicholas Someone |
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Michael Noone
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:06 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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larwe@larwe.com wrote in news:1102356607.572465.5980
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
| Quote: | more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of
doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations,
multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on
AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
A small incremental step would probably be to the MSP430. Getting into
this platform is very inexpensive, about $50 total hardware investment
(look at the Olimex stuff sold by, for example, www.sparkfun.com).
If you are looking to make a big performance leap, consider a migration
to ARM. The cheapest route for you to take right now would probably be
to one of the Philips LPC21xx series parts. Again, inexpensive
development hardware is available, though it is slightly more costly
than MSP430.
|
So I took a look at the Philips LPC21xx chips, and there's one thing I
don't understand about them: They say they're 16/32 bit. I haven't
encountered anything like this before - what exactly is meant by that? I'm
looking here:
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/markets/mms/products/microcontrollers
/key_solutions/32bit/index.html
Thanks!
-Michael Noone |
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Vadim Borshchev
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:41 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 20:06:50 GMT, Michael Noone
<mnoone.uiuc.edu@127.0.0.1> wrote:
| Quote: | So I took a look at the Philips LPC21xx chips, and there's one thing I
don't understand about them: They say they're 16/32 bit. I haven't
encountered anything like this before - what exactly is meant by that?
|
ARM core can run in two modes: ARM (32-bit commands) and Thumb (16-bit
commands). Thumb code takes less space, while ARM code executes faster.
Conditional execution of commands is not possible in Thumb mode (obviously
apart from branches), also commands always modify flags.
You can switch between modes easily and have both ARM and Thumb code in
the same binary module -- Thumb to save space, ARM for fast routines.
The registers are 32-bit in both modes.
Have a look at http://www.arm.com/documentation/ There is also
news:comp.sys.arm newsgroup.
Vadim |
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Tauno Voipio
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:51 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Michael Noone wrote:
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
-Michael Noone
|
When ATMega's get tight, I move into AT91 ARM's. There are good GNU
toolkits for both, and the AT91 can run in 16-bit instruction mode
(called Thumb) if storage space is tight.
--
Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:19 am Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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In a nutshell: 32-bit internal architecture, 16-bit buses. The MC68000
and MC68010 were also 16/32 bit chips, for example.
It so happens that ARM instruction set has an optional extension,
called Thumb mode, which compresses the 32-bit instruction set into a
16-bit word (at the expense of a smaller range of source and
destination operands, mainly).
If you get started on the LPC21xx and find the performance inadequate,
you can use the exact same code [at least, the math portions of it] on
a meatier fully 32-bit ARM variant. It's an excellent learning platform
if nothing else. |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Michael Noone wrote:
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
|
I'd go for a REALLY low cost option- and old PC. You've done the little
micro bit. 16 bitters aren't a lot different. Look at the opposite end
of embedded design- using a complex board, lots of memory, operating
systems etc. And you can get started for 30 Euros for a secondhand PC if
you haven't got one already. Start with the obvious- DOS, Borland C++
etc- and work up to Ecos, embedded Linux or whatever. You can use the
parallel port for IO to start with, then if it's an old ISA machine
design yourself some specialist thingies to make it do something
interesting.
Paul Burke |
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Chris Hills
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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In article <Xns95B77802AA764mnooneuiucedu127001@63.240.76.16>, Michael
Noone <mnoone.uiuc.edu@127.0.0.1> writes
| Quote: | Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with Atmel
AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something with a bit
more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is capable of doing
more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit calculations, multiplication,
division, powers, etc. I know some of this can kind of be done on AVRs, but
it can't be done well, nor at the speed that I really need. So would
anybody have any suggestions as to a logical progression past AVRs would be
for me? Perhaps a more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
-Michael Noone
|
You should also try the "universal" 8 bit processors the 8051 family and
probably the PIC16 as well.
Then move on to the 32 ARM.
The point of embedded, unlike desktop stuff, is you usually can't just
add more power or memory.
If the Microwave cooker needs to be produced at 99 USD (to sell for 250
USD) and the other components come to 98 USD you get 1 USD for the
micro. That's how it works in embedded. the micro is part of something
else that dictates many of the parameters.
Other times it is power consumption, size of package, peripherals
required.
In any event the 8051 and PIC are the most common 8 bit families and
both are quite different to the AVR even when using C.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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Michael Noone
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Next logical step after 8bit uCs? |
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Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in
news:31lacpF3bvvrhU1@individual.net:
| Quote: | Michael Noone wrote:
Hi - so I've gotten to the point where I feel fairly competent with
Atmel AVRs (8 bit microcontrollers) - but I'd like to find something
with a bit more power. Specifically, I really need a chip that is
capable of doing more sophisticated math, ie 16 or 32 bit
calculations, multiplication, division, powers, etc. I know some of
this can kind of be done on AVRs, but it can't be done well, nor at
the speed that I really need. So would anybody have any suggestions
as to a logical progression past AVRs would be for me? Perhaps a
more advanced microcontroller or microprocessor? Thanks!
I'd go for a REALLY low cost option- and old PC. You've done the
little micro bit. 16 bitters aren't a lot different. Look at the
opposite end of embedded design- using a complex board, lots of
memory, operating systems etc. And you can get started for 30 Euros
for a secondhand PC if you haven't got one already. Start with the
obvious- DOS, Borland C++ etc- and work up to Ecos, embedded Linux or
whatever. You can use the parallel port for IO to start with, then if
it's an old ISA machine design yourself some specialist thingies to
make it do something interesting.
Paul Burke
|
This is an option I've thought about - but for now I'd really like to stick
with physically smaller solutions, as most of what I work on is very small,
and something the size of a full computer just isn't an option...
-Michael |
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