| Author |
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Casper H.S. Dik
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
| Quote: | Pooh Bear wrote:
Simpler to keep hijackers out of the cockpit really. Low tech ( a strong
door ) wins .
We already have more than 100 people killed by this strong door. A few
weeks, a machine from Helios crashedn near Athens, because the pilots lost
conciousness (low pressure), and it took too long to enter the cockpit to
land the plane.
|
The strong doors I have seen appear to have a combination lock; the combination
presumably is known to some other crew members?
But you are right; most security measures add risks; the strong
door adds fewer risks, on balance, than a remote fight control center.
I'd like to know how many other incidents occured where the flight crew
lost conciousnous because they weren't aware of their lack of oxygen.
Casper
--
Expressed in this posting are my opinions. They are in no way related
to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.
Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and may
be fiction rather than truth. |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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| Quote: | I'd like to know how many other incidents occured where the flight crew
lost conciousnous because they weren't aware of their lack of oxygen.
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One prominent case was a Learjet with a famous golf player on board.
It crashed when it ran out of fuel.
Jan |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Bernd Paysan wrote:
| Quote: | Pooh Bear wrote:
Simpler to keep hijackers out of the cockpit really. Low tech ( a strong
door ) wins .
We already have more than 100 people killed by this strong door. A few
weeks, a machine from Helios crashedn near Athens, because the pilots lost
conciousness (low pressure), and it took too long to enter the cockpit to
land the plane.
|
I'm aware of that event.
You can't actually blame it on the door. The crew appear not to have followed
procedure for a depressurisation.
Seemingly the door was indeed breached but the member of cabin staff wasn't
able to do very much.
I'll be very interested to see what the investigation eventually says.
Graham |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Ken Smith
<kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote (in <dgbvne$hb0$4@blue.rahul.net>)
about 'Taking back control of the flight computer ?', on Thu, 15 Sep
2005:
| Quote: | Hummm yes maybe I typed the right answer by mistake. I meant the FAA
but perhaps placing a trained pig at the front of the aircraft would
help a lot.
|
You'll be giving Ryanair ideas!
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
If everything has been designed, a god designed evolution by natural selection.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Don Bowey
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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On 9/15/05 7:13 AM, in article dgbvhq$hb0$2@blue.rahul.net, "Ken Smith"
<kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <dgb474$es4$1@osl016lin.hda.hydro.com>,
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:
[...]
Welcome to news:comp.risks
Let's assume we have a critical situation, the pilots are foced to
attempt a (dead-stick?) landing in the nearest flat piece of land, and
the hw takes over and foils them during their only possible attempt.
If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in "a
flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
|
You don't have all the facts. However, the land was not very flat and there
were large trees, which were struck by the plane.
About 20 years ago there was a night-time dead-stick landing of a United
flight, in a sparse residential area of Portland Or. Most passengers walked
away from the mishap.
There was a landing gear problem and the pilot flew around to get rid of
fuel in order to prevent a major fire if the gear failed on landing at PDX.
The pilot did not maintain a realistic altitude, and when both engines
starved the pilot "landed" in an area showing the fewest lights.
So I believe it could happen again, in the future.
Don
| Quote: |
Airbus already includes systems on the aircraft that override the pilots
inputs in some situations. These systems are judged to save more lives
than they kill and thus are an improvement in safety.
Or, what about skyscrapers in Denver, Mexico City or some other
high-altitude location.
Ever hear of a radar altimeter?
The proper response to 9/11 style hijackings were discovered within an
hour: It is better for both crew and passenger to die trying to
kill/subdue the hijackers than to die flying into a target.
No, it is better to not let the hijacking happen in the first place. |
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Jonathan Thornburg -- rem
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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In some article whose nested quoting has overflowed my mental stack,
someone proposed
| The system can be all contained on the aircraft. It only needs GPS or the
| like to know where it is. The software contains a map of the world. If
| there isn't an airport marked at this location, you can't go below 3000
| feet.
In some other such qrticle, someone who if I've unwrapped things
correctly was probably Ken Smith <kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote:
| Quote: | You are assuming absolute altitude. You don't have to include that to
keep most of the large buildings in the world safe. This was the goal.
If the aircraft has a radar altimeter, the 3000 feet could be the height
above the surface thus keeping all buildings currently in existance safe.
|
Alas, there are lots of "exceptional cases" (more frequent than
nasty-people-at-the-controls) where this could convert an "incident"
(something is wrong) into an "accident" (bent sheet metal, dead people).
For example:
* rader altimeter failure
* failure of deice system combined with severe icing at higher altitudes
forces the crew to decend to below 3000 ft AGL to continue safe flight
* onboard fire or structural failure --> need emergency landing NOW at
"the closest vaguely-flat piece of ground, whether it's an airport,
a drag strip, or a corn field"
* less-urgent situation (weather, fuel leak, medical emergency, ...)
requires landing at a little-used or small airport (where typical
traffic is smaller planes which don't have the "magic box")...
followed by the discovery of a map-database bug --> oops, can't land :(
There are good reasons the aviation community standardized long ago on
"trust the judgement of the pilots" as their basic exception-handling
philosophy...
And since this really has very little to do with comp.arch, I've set
followups to comp.risks and sci.aeronautics.airliners.
ciao,
--
-- "Jonathan Thornburg (remove -animal to reply)" <jthorn@aei.mpg-zebra.de>
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
Golm, Germany, "Old Europe" http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."
-- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam |
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Jonathan Thornburg -- rem
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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| Quote: | Let's assume we have a critical situation, the pilots are foced to
attempt a (dead-stick?) landing in the nearest flat piece of land, and
the hw takes over and foils them during their only possible attempt.
|
Ken Smith <kensmith@green.rahul.net> suggested
| Quote: | If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in "a
flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
|
Al Haynes and his colleagues landed a crippled DC-10 that way on
19 July 1989, near Sioux City, Iowa:
http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/dc10_sioux_city.html
I will admit that using the word "landing" is a bit generous here,
but 184/296 people did survive the event...
--
-- "Jonathan Thornburg -- remove -animal to reply" <jthorn@aei.mpg-zebra.de>
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut),
Golm, Germany, "Old Europe" http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html
"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."
-- quote by Freire / poster by Oxfam |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:53:15 +0100, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that Ken Smith
kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote (in <dgbvne$hb0$4@blue.rahul.net>)
about 'Taking back control of the flight computer ?', on Thu, 15 Sep
2005:
Hummm yes maybe I typed the right answer by mistake. I meant the FAA
but perhaps placing a trained pig at the front of the aircraft would
help a lot.
You'll be giving Ryanair ideas!
|
Ah, that's how they can fly from Liverpool to Rome for GBP 2.99 (about
US $5.50).
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Bernd Paysan
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Anton Ertl wrote:
Yes, that's the episode. On air half a year before 9/11.
| Quote: | What may be relevant to the discussion at hand is that there were no
terrorists aboard; instead, the bad guys had programmed the flight
control chip for the course (or programmed it for remote control or
somesuch).
|
You can only move the weakest point in the chain.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
I read in sci.electronics.design that Ken Smith
<kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote (in <dgbvhq$hb0$2@blue.rahul.net>)
about 'Taking back control of the flight computer ?', on Thu, 15 Sep
2005:
| Quote: | If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in
"a flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
|
I'm not sure that that is true; it depend on how small an 'airliner' can
be. I don't have time for extensive Googling to cite cases.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
If everything has been designed, a god designed evolution by natural selection.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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Richard Henry
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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"Ken Smith" <kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:dgbvhq$hb0$2@blue.rahul.net...
| Quote: | In article <dgb474$es4$1@osl016lin.hda.hydro.com>,
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:
[...]
Welcome to news:comp.risks
Let's assume we have a critical situation, the pilots are foced to
attempt a (dead-stick?) landing in the nearest flat piece of land, and
the hw takes over and foils them during their only possible attempt.
If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in "a
flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
Airbus already includes systems on the aircraft that override the pilots
inputs in some situations. These systems are judged to save more lives
than they kill and thus are an improvement in safety.
|
http://www.simradar.com/Feature/2315/Airbus_Crash_in_Airshow.html
BTW, Not everyone died. |
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Anton Ertl
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
| Quote: | Actually, there was even an X-file sequel around that
was talking about some black helicopter types taking planes to hit the WTC
towers.
|
You are probably thinking of the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen:
<http://www.xfiles.stylicious.com/lonegunmen/1aeb79.php>
What may be relevant to the discussion at hand is that there were no
terrorists aboard; instead, the bad guys had programmed the flight
control chip for the course (or programmed it for remote control or
somesuch).
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html |
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Bernd Paysan
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
| Quote: | From what I've read, he tried more than one approach, but was always
too high and/or fast. What I find strange is that he didn't manage to
contact the tower for help - properly set up, a modern autopilot will
land the plane almost by itself.
|
Yes, but for that you need
a) a modern autopilot, and
b) someone who's able to set it up properly.
Neither was available in this case. And the guy didn't have any experience
with a big bird like that. Or with maneuvers how to take down a plane
quickly without gaining too much speed. I'd rather guess that he even
didn't know how to use the air-breaks.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ |
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Jan Vorbrüggen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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| Quote: | Seemingly the door was indeed breached but the member of cabin staff
wasn't able to do very much.
He was apparently able to take the machine down, and tried to approach
Athens airport, but the machine ran out of fuel first.
|
From what I've read, he tried more than one approach, but was always
too high and/or fast. What I find strange is that he didn't manage to
contact the tower for help - properly set up, a modern autopilot will
land the plane almost by itself.
Jan |
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Bernd Paysan
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Pooh Bear wrote:
| Quote: | I'm aware of that event.
You can't actually blame it on the door. The crew appear not to have
followed procedure for a depressurisation.
|
It seemed to take quite a while until the cabin crew realized that they
didn't, and managed to take actions. In the old "open door" situation, it
would have been far easier to take these actions. It's not really that
uncommon that both pilots have problems; that's why at least one cabin crew
member must have some aircraft knowledge.
| Quote: | Seemingly the door was indeed breached but the member of cabin staff
wasn't able to do very much.
|
He was apparently able to take the machine down, and tried to approach
Athens airport, but the machine ran out of fuel first.
| Quote: | I'll be very interested to see what the investigation eventually says.
|
Me, too.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ |
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