| Author |
Message |
Benny Amorsen
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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| Quote: | "KS" == Ken Smith <kensmith@green.rahul.net> writes:
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KS> If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner
KS> in "a flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
Stefan Rasmussen would disagree, I am sure. Admittedly he had to cut a
few treetops with the wings before actually reaching the flat piece of
land, and the airliner did not look too good afterwards.
/Benny |
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Rich Grise
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:51:50 +0200, Skybuck Flying wrote:
| Quote: | Come on guys,
This is a serious issue.
Somewhere in the future you might actually be inside a hi-jacked plane, then
what you gonna do ???
|
Well, since the odds of an airplane being hijacked or bombed are about one
in a million, the odds that there will be _two_ bombs is one in a million
million, or an American trillion.
So, just carry a bomb with you, and you'll be a million times safer!
Good Luck!
Rich |
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Richard the Dreaded Liber
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:51:50 +0200, Skybuck Flying wrote:
| Quote: | Come on guys,
This is a serious issue.
Somewhere in the future you might actually be inside a hi-jacked plane, then
what you gonna do ???
|
Fly Atheist Airlines:
----------------
I noticed there are a lot of specialty airlines these days. For example,
Hooters has its own airline targeted at horny men, and Virgin has an
airline targeted at virgins. My idea is to start Atheist Airlines,
targeted at non-believers who want to avoid security delays.
At Atheist Air, prior to boarding, passengers would be required to spout
blasphemous remarks at a display of artifacts from all the major
religions. This effectively weeds out anyone who has a secret plan to meet
the Creator in the next few hours. Blasphemers would be allowed to
carry-on pickaxes, blowtorches, chainsaws, nun chucks, whatever, under the
theory that atheists generally try to avoid hurting other people in any
situation where there isn't a clear escape route.
-- http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/dnrc/html/newsletter49.html
Cheers!
Rich |
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Ketil Malde
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Casper H.S. Dik <Casper.Dik@Sun.COM> writes:
| Quote: | I don't believe that. Actually, there was even an X-file sequel around that
was talking about some black helicopter types taking planes to hit the WTC
towers.
Also remember that Spiderman used a giant spider net on WTC to catch a
helicopter which was trying to fly into the towers.
"Tom Clancy wrote two bestselling thrillers about a pilot deliberately
flying a fuel-laden jet into the Capitol building and killing the
President and top leadership (Debt of Honor , 1994; Executive Orders,
1996)."
|
I believe the book "Running Man" by Stephen King (under the name of
Richard Bachman) ends with the protagonist hijacking and crashing an
airplane into the building running the show.
See also today's Crypto-Gram (Bruce Schneier's monthly e-letter) about
protecting againts "movie plot threats".
http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0509.html
-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants |
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JJ
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Pooh Bear wrote:
| Quote: | JJ wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:
The next time someone tries it they will be beaten to death by the
passengers. The cockpit doors are reinforced and the passengers will
never again sit dociley by, believing promises of no harm if they
co-operate and allow negotiations. See flight 93. Likewise, the pilots
will not co-operate and will land at the first opportunity.
del cecchi
Yeh I hope that happens too, but what if Fred (1,2..) is a converted
anglo like the jerk just shown on TV?, gives them another edge.
Who's Fred ?
|
Fred is UK speak for anybody at all.
| Quote: | Myself, I'd basically start checking out all the Freds that visit
certain countries and attended certain "schools of lower education" who
are supposed to be getting kicked out by end of this year.
What is 'checking them out' supposed to achieve ?
|
Well the US Army intel folks had been doing plenty of "checkout" on Mr
Atta but were forbidden from passing that onto FBI by their own lawyers
some time before 9/11. If all the intel had been together, the picture
would have been more obvious, and already was to some.
When people start to do things of interest like learning to fly planes
who come from certain countries, buy certain components, attend certain
schools in certain countries, of course we damn well check them out.
IIRC 2 of those UK bombers went to such schools to get radicalized.
What checkout achieves is to make things that might have happened NOT
happen. The intel folks don't tell us when this and that never
happened, we don't need to know as that gives away their capabilities.
> Graham |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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John Woodgate wrote:
| Quote: | I read in sci.electronics.design that Pooh Bear
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote (in
4329D27F.D24BF374@hotmail.com>) about 'Taking back control of the
flight computer ?', on Thu, 15 Sep 2005:
You remind me of my idea to avoid having Moslems flying on board.
Compulsory pork snacks.
No, that would keep out the Jews and veggies as well.
|
I could live with that minor inconvenience. Anyway I gather the Reform Jewish
Church isn't too strict on the pork thing. The Jews have their own airline already
anyway ! ;-)
| Quote: | Compulsory alcoholic drinks. There wouldn't be room even for
non-observing Moslems.(;-)
|
Hah ! I know someone who went to a Moslem wedding IIRC. He was invited to join the
elders who were drinking 'tea'. He finally got it when it was explained that it was
'very special tea'. Any similarity in colour between tea and Scotch Whisky is quite
incidental.
Graham |
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John Woodgate
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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I read in sci.electronics.design that Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote (in
<4329D27F.D24BF374@hotmail.com>) about 'Taking back control of the
flight computer ?', on Thu, 15 Sep 2005:
| Quote: | You remind me of my idea to avoid having Moslems flying on board.
Compulsory pork snacks.
|
No, that would keep out the Jews and veggies as well.
Compulsory alcoholic drinks. There wouldn't be room even for
non-observing Moslems.(;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
If everything has been designed, a god designed evolution by natural selection.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk |
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JJ
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Pooh Bear wrote:
| Quote: | JJ wrote:
Pooh Bear wrote:
JJ wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:
The next time someone tries it they will be beaten to death by the
passengers. The cockpit doors are reinforced and the passengers will
never again sit dociley by, believing promises of no harm if they
co-operate and allow negotiations. See flight 93. Likewise, the pilots
will not co-operate and will land at the first opportunity.
del cecchi
Yeh I hope that happens too, but what if Fred (1,2..) is a converted
anglo like the jerk just shown on TV?, gives them another edge.
Who's Fred ?
Fred is UK speak for anybody at all.
Myself, I'd basically start checking out all the Freds that visit
certain countries and attended certain "schools of lower education" who
are supposed to be getting kicked out by end of this year.
What is 'checking them out' supposed to achieve ?
Well the US Army intel folks had been doing plenty of "checkout" on Mr
Atta but were forbidden from passing that onto FBI by their own lawyers
some time before 9/11. If all the intel had been together, the picture
would have been more obvious, and already was to some.
When people start to do things of interest like learning to fly planes
who come from certain countries, buy certain components, attend certain
schools in certain countries, of course we damn well check them out.
IIRC 2 of those UK bombers went to such schools to get radicalized.
What checkout achieves is to make things that might have happened NOT
happen. The intel folks don't tell us when this and that never
happened, we don't need to know as that gives away their capabilities.
Ok - I was puzzled about the 'checkout' concept.
I gather that Atta was very plausible and certainly didn't 'look' like the
archetypal Moslem extremist. Had he been 'checked out' I rather expect he would
simply say that flying had always been his passion etc... etc....
|
Well most of the flying lessons for commercial jets they took were not
beginning, middle, end lessons as would usually be taken, just the bit
about steering, no need to take off or land. That was plenty enough to
raise suspician and it did.
Also they were not traditional air force type backgrounds or affiliated
with national government programs to train pilots, another clue,
background all wrong.
Now rich folks flying planes usually learn in smaller planes nothing to
do with commercial planes, another clue, these guys weren't rich. Very
few people learn to fly commercial jets just for fun.
| Quote: | I rather feel that 'checking out' will achieve very little.
|
I am sure it does work most of the time but we don't need to know, we
find out only when no checking ever got started or got messed up on 6pm
news.
| Quote: |
I hadn't heard that the US Army had their own issues with him and were *prevented*
from telling the FBI.
That's a failure of intelligence and something that can indeed be usefully
addressed and fixed - as long as egos will permit it !.
In the UK where we've had to deal with IRA terroism for a long time, a close
rapport has developed between the various parties who have an interest in
intelligence issues. The US needs to learn from that.
Graham
|
I am sure every agency learns, shares with other countries, hopefully.
BTW half my life was in UK growing up with IRA, Eta, baader mienhoff
news etc.
These new guys are just plain monsters on a scale far beyond the IRA
pettyness, and worse they make us get into issues of mistrusting your
neighbor, figuring out a foriegn culture in your midst etc. Monsters
have a hard time to act natural though but still pass. Also I hear that
many of the 19 may not have known the full extant of their mission,
they were just the muscle, making it even more important to track their
leaders.
regards
johnjakson at usa .. |
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:58:55 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
| Quote: |
You remind me of my idea to avoid having Moslems flying on board.
Compulsory pork snacks.
Graham
|
ROTFLMAO! A rare display of humor ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:51:50 +0200, Skybuck Flying wrote:
Come on guys,
This is a serious issue.
Somewhere in the future you might actually be inside a hi-jacked plane, then
what you gonna do ???
Fly Atheist Airlines:
----------------
I noticed there are a lot of specialty airlines these days. For example,
Hooters has its own airline targeted at horny men, and Virgin has an
airline targeted at virgins. My idea is to start Atheist Airlines,
targeted at non-believers who want to avoid security delays.
At Atheist Air, prior to boarding, passengers would be required to spout
blasphemous remarks at a display of artifacts from all the major
religions. This effectively weeds out anyone who has a secret plan to meet
the Creator in the next few hours. Blasphemers would be allowed to
carry-on pickaxes, blowtorches, chainsaws, nun chucks, whatever, under the
theory that atheists generally try to avoid hurting other people in any
situation where there isn't a clear escape route.
-- http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/dnrc/html/newsletter49.html
|
You remind me of my idea to avoid having Moslems flying on board.
Compulsory pork snacks.
Graham |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
Richard Henry wrote:
| Quote: | "Ken Smith" <kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:dgbvhq$hb0$2@blue.rahul.net...
In article <dgb474$es4$1@osl016lin.hda.hydro.com>,
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:
[...]
Welcome to news:comp.risks
Let's assume we have a critical situation, the pilots are foced to
attempt a (dead-stick?) landing in the nearest flat piece of land, and
the hw takes over and foils them during their only possible attempt.
If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in "a
flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
Airbus already includes systems on the aircraft that override the pilots
inputs in some situations. These systems are judged to save more lives
than they kill and thus are an improvement in safety.
http://www.simradar.com/Feature/2315/Airbus_Crash_in_Airshow.html
BTW, Not everyone died.
|
I think 3 ppl died in fact ( from memory ) .
The A320 had a troubled entry into service, a large portion of which may have
caused by unfamiliarity with the then novel concept of fly-by-wire for
commercial airliners.
Then the accidents simply stopped . Better training maybe ?
The A320's a nice aircraft to fly in btw.
Graham |
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Terje Mathisen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
Ken Smith wrote:
| Quote: | In article <dgb474$es4$1@osl016lin.hda.hydro.com>,
Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:
[...]
Welcome to news:comp.risks
Let's assume we have a critical situation, the pilots are foced to
attempt a (dead-stick?) landing in the nearest flat piece of land, and
the hw takes over and foils them during their only possible attempt.
If that happens everybody dies. No-one has ever landed an airliner in "a
flat piece of land" and it is very-very unlikely in future.
|
Totally wrong!
A very famous incident here in Scandinavia involved an SAS machine (DC9
afair) losing all engine power shortly after takeoff from Arlanda,
Stockholm.
The captain managed to land the plane on a couple of tiny fields
(breaking a lot of spruce trees while doing so), with zero (or very
low?) loss of life. The plane broke into three parts, but did not catch
fire.
Terje
--
- <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>
"almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching" |
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Sean Kelly
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
Ken Smith wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1126731334.818926.221680@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Sean Kelly <sean@f4.ca> wrote:
[...]
This sounds like a complex answer to a simple problem. Plus, it
presents the opportunity for hackers to take control of airplanes from
a secure location. Gives a whole new meaning to the term "fly by wire"
The system can be all contained on the aircraft. It only needs GPS or the
like to know where it is. The software contains a map of the world. If
there isn't an airport marked at this location, you can't go below 3000
feet.
|
Complex solution again, though I grant that it eliminates the
possibility of remote control. For any such system, the flight crew
would need an override method, and there's no practical way to prevent
its use by others.
Sean |
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Ketil Malde
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
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|
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian <say_greiss@example.net> writes:
| Quote: | On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:51:50 +0200, Skybuck Flying wrote:
Somewhere in the future you might actually be inside a hi-jacked
plane, then what you gonna do ???
Fly Atheist Airlines:
|
Great idea! How about a slogan?
"Atheist Air - as close to heaven as you'll ever get"
"Atheist Air - we aim a little lower"
-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants |
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Pooh Bear
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:15 am Post subject:
Re: Taking back control of the flight computer ? |
|
|
JJ wrote:
| Quote: | Pooh Bear wrote:
JJ wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:
The next time someone tries it they will be beaten to death by the
passengers. The cockpit doors are reinforced and the passengers will
never again sit dociley by, believing promises of no harm if they
co-operate and allow negotiations. See flight 93. Likewise, the pilots
will not co-operate and will land at the first opportunity.
del cecchi
Yeh I hope that happens too, but what if Fred (1,2..) is a converted
anglo like the jerk just shown on TV?, gives them another edge.
Who's Fred ?
Fred is UK speak for anybody at all.
Myself, I'd basically start checking out all the Freds that visit
certain countries and attended certain "schools of lower education" who
are supposed to be getting kicked out by end of this year.
What is 'checking them out' supposed to achieve ?
Well the US Army intel folks had been doing plenty of "checkout" on Mr
Atta but were forbidden from passing that onto FBI by their own lawyers
some time before 9/11. If all the intel had been together, the picture
would have been more obvious, and already was to some.
When people start to do things of interest like learning to fly planes
who come from certain countries, buy certain components, attend certain
schools in certain countries, of course we damn well check them out.
IIRC 2 of those UK bombers went to such schools to get radicalized.
What checkout achieves is to make things that might have happened NOT
happen. The intel folks don't tell us when this and that never
happened, we don't need to know as that gives away their capabilities.
|
Ok - I was puzzled about the 'checkout' concept.
I gather that Atta was very plausible and certainly didn't 'look' like the
archetypal Moslem extremist. Had he been 'checked out' I rather expect he would
simply say that flying had always been his passion etc... etc....
I rather feel that 'checking out' will achieve very little.
I hadn't heard that the US Army had their own issues with him and were *prevented*
from telling the FBI.
That's a failure of intelligence and something that can indeed be usefully
addressed and fixed - as long as egos will permit it !.
In the UK where we've had to deal with IRA terroism for a long time, a close
rapport has developed between the various parties who have an interest in
intelligence issues. The US needs to learn from that.
Graham |
|
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